Thread: 'the truth shall set you free.' Jn 8:32

Not sure where I have been obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or violative of any laws. But if I have done any of these things "personally" (your quote) to you, I stand corrected.

I was going to respond to each clause, but I think solon's title says it all.

Originally Posted by solon

Sorry, but I seem to be missing the point

There is no need to apologise (to me at least). I want you to have your freedom of opinion, as I am sure you would defend the right for me to have mine.
Take care, have a great day, and may you too be truly blessed.

Originally Posted by solon

I would just like to add to the above by Frode. What has this 'discussion' got to do with the PIPS program? Denim I personally find your opinions bigoted, and offensive - you may have guessed that I am a non-christian. By the way that does not make me any less good than you, and neither do I need saving. Why do all Christians believe that any other religion or belief has to be the work of the Devil. You believe that all new agers are misguided and don't know the truth (as you see it), I believe that you are all brainwashed by an organisation set up to control the masses and do away with individual freedom - an organisation that has the blood of thousands of inocent individuals on it's hands. I notice that no Christian ever quotes historical facts when talking about their religion. I hope that I have not offended you, but the way I see it, if you are allowed your opinion then so am I. Personally I think this thread should be locked or moved to the general discussion section, or better still why don't you start your own forum Denim. May your God bless you and may mine bless you too!

Originally Posted by kimlyn

In answer to the below Post - I [as kimlyn ] am not from America, but Australia

And I'm British in Australia (and still have the accent).

Originally Posted by kimlyn

I am well past the stage of saving

Not at all, very very few are past that stage.

Originally Posted by kimlyn

I have sinned against the holy spirit because I challenged the authority of the holy spirit behind God's "Faithful and disceet slave class " ( Matthew 24:45 ).

I'm not an authority. Few has done that. Challenging authority isn't a sin. My guess is that you haven't committed it.

Originally Posted by kimlyn

And as for our "Bible" discussion - I am more than happy to speak else where and can do, if others would like - but, I have a personal interest in Myths, Religion, ancient History and the Occult [as a "hobby"] and see no problem with discussing the matter - in a calm and ammicable way with those who like to debate and ask questions. A good debate exercises the mind.

I'm only doing it here because the thread is here. If I had seen it somewhere else I would have joined it there. And is spot on topic, even though it has sort of "Chinese Whispered" itself about a bit. But that is what discussion is all about. I believe the moderators who always tend to err on the side of caution have seen this thread and have realised that we are all presenting our thoughts without being offensive, obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or violative of any laws, according to the rules. And when Kimlyn is talking about exercising the mind, you are definitely exercising mine. I am only contributing as I have time. But I think we are having a good and spirited debate.

Originally Posted by kimlyn

And yes I will answer Denon in due course as promised when "I load up the ammo" to blow away his belief system

Why do I get a feeling that I may have won a battle but not the war. Its great discussing with you. And as for the spectators (have you seen how many have viewed this, its fantastic) I hope you are all enjoying it too.

Is "ammo" a derivative of "ammon"? (couldn't resist that).

Originally Posted by kimlyn

[ PS - DENON your a nice guy as are most Christians

Hot Flush thank you. You seem really nice too

Originally Posted by kimlyn

{ I am not so sure about the Crusades} - I enjoy our discussion - I'm only teasing you no offense intended. ]

I'm not sure about the Crusades either. Enjoying muchly. And definitely no offence taken.

Originally Posted by NASDAQ

Anyone ever consider the possibility that God my be a energy being with a leaning towards the feminine side. Why else would every child begin life as a female.

NASDAQ

The man Jesus Christ was and is a male

God however is beyond being male or female - God is way greater than that!
if God were male he would

• never ask for directions and always be lost.
• always want the remote control.
• always be losing things.
• wouldn't show his emotions much.
• have a universe with more sport and holidays.
• would have taught his son to fight back.

God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; MALE AND FEMALE he created them. Gen 1:26-27

God created "man" in his image. Men and women are both made in God's image. Male and female both reflect the image of God. If you only have one of them you don't have the whole picture! The best qualities of both sexes come from God! And of course God is so great and awesome,God is beyond our comprehension.

If you put a gender on God, you would have an idol. Anything with a gender is made in our image. Anything you make in your or our image is an idol. We don't make God in our image - God made us in his image!

In the Old Testament there were false gods; images people made to worship. And they had gender. For instance, Asherah was a female God - a fertility God. She was nothing more than an idol. Another god was Baal, who was male. And these days some people say they worship "The Goddess" in wicca. Or the Earth, Gaia who they see as female. The real true creator God has no gender. We can't make God in our own image because God is real and beyond us! As soon as you start making God male or female you have lost the plot!

When God is referred to as "HE" it is nothing more than that the language it was written in. It's the same as the English word "Man" means the whole of mankind or humanity, both male and female.

Jesus invits us to call God "Father". And when he did that, he gave us a new relationship with God. As children to a loving and good father - a spiritual father! "God Our Father" does not mean "male" it means the qualities and relationship of a good father. Jesus proved that when he spoke on behalf of God and said these words: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." Matthew 23:37 He didn't he use a ROOSTER instead of a HEN because HEN was closer to the truth. In this case God's love was more like a hen than a rooster!

The Best Qualities of Motherhood All Come From God. Like A Good mother, God Never Forgets You. The heart of a good mother is so unselfish it's amazing. And that's God's heart. "Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; I can never forget you." Isaiah 49:14-16. Like A Good mother, God Comforts The Broken. For this is what the Lord says:

"I will extend peace to you like a river, and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream; you will nurse and be carried on her arm and rested on her knees.As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you; and you will be comforted..." Isaiah 66:12 -13, God comforts the broken. And there's no greater comfort than the love shown to you in the CROSS of Jesus Christ.
God Is Beyond Gender! If you put a gender on God you only have an idol.


Hope that helps

Back again;

To Denim -

So now DENIM - here is my response to your last post. My comments are in bold text.

With respect there is nothing modern about "my" understanding of "Amen." The understanding that is globally accepted by Christians and JWs alike has no bearing on any Egyptian deity; it is as old as time itself and predates "Ammon" by eternity. (These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; REV 3:14) It would be pharasitical to think otherwise. God who is supreme above all things sees all knows the heart of the one who prays.

I'm sorry but I strongly disagree and here is my research -

AMEN©
________________

Question - What is the true origin of the word AMEN and should TRUE CHRISTIANS be saying it at the end of prayer ? What does the Bible say about prayer ?

Answer - The answer to this question is quite simple, but requires some explanation.

The Unabridged Webster’s International Dictionary [ of 1903 ] states on page 47 for the word – AMEN;

A’MEN - An expression used at the end of prayers and meaning - so be it. In Hebrew it also means certainly truly. At the end of a creed it is a solemn asseveration of belief. When it introduces a declaration it is equivalent to truly, verily. It is used as a noun to denote; ( B ) the final word or act.

A’MEN - To say AMEN to; to sanction fully.

As for the word SANCTION its meaning on page 1273 of the same dictionary states;

SANC’TION - To render sacred inviolable, to fix unalterably. 1. Solemn or ceremonious ratification; an official act of a superior by which he ratifies and gives validity to the act of some other person or body; establishment or furtherance of anything by giving authority to it; confirmation; approbation.
2. Anything done or said to enforce the will, law or authority of another; as legal sanctions.

The Concise Oxford Dictionary states on page 746 ( sixth edition, 1978 reprint ) a NOUN is;

Noun – Word or phrase used as a name of person, place or thing, substantive.
__________________________________________________ _______________
And so; any prayer is sanctioned fully when the NOUN AMEN is used at the end, giving it ceremonious ratification. This enforces the prayer spoken giving it a furtherance of established Authority and Lawful Enforcement [ by those saying the word AMEN ] to the deity ( Jehovah ) being prayed too.
But any reasonable person will ask – By whose Authority and law enforcement is sanctioning the prayer ? This will be by the sanctioned and divine authority of AMEN. As AMEN is a noun, it is either a person, place, or thing .

Then any thinking person will ask - Who, or what, exactly is AMEN ?

AMEN we find is the Egyptian Sun deity – Ammon, or Amon, or Amun, or Amen, all various spelling derivatives of the very same name of a person who happens to be The Sun god. Make no mistake ALL CHRISTIANITY [ including the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses ] is steeped in some level of SUN WORSHIP and hence idolatry. The use of AMEN in prayer is another example of Paganism intermingled with Christianity. Some might know it as INTERFAITH, others call it IDOLATRY.

Followers of Christ will worship what they know which in turn gives them the truth and hence God’s spirit. How can this be the case if Christians don’t know the origin of Christ and why he is the light of the world which shines forth and why he REPEATEDLY used the word AMEN, hence being linked to Sun Worship??? Christ responded to the Samaritan woman at the well, after she perceived he was a prophet in John 4:21 – 24;

‘ Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you people worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews. Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed the father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a spirit and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” ’

Quoting from [ page X L I X of ] Manly P Hall’s Book - The Secret Teaching of All Ages it states on the subject chapter regarding - The Sun a Universal Deity;

“ The adoration of the sun was one of the earliest and most natural forms of religious expression. Complex modern theologies are merely involvements and amplifications of this simple Aboriginal belief. The primitive mind, recognizing the beneficent power of he solar orb, adored it as the proxy of the Supreme Deity.

Concerning the origin of sun worship, Albert Pike makes the following concise statement in his [ book ] Morals and Dogma: ‘ ‘To them [peoples], he [sun] was the innate fire of bodies, the fire of Nature. Author of Life, heat, and ignition, he was to them the efficient cause of all generation, for without him there was no movement, no existence, no form. He was to them immense, indivisible, imperishable, and everywhere present. It was their need of light, and of his creative energy, that was felt by all men; and nothing was more fearful to them than his absence. His beneficent influences caused his identification with the Principle of Good; and the BRAHMA of the Hindus, and MITHRAS of the Persians, and ATHOM, AMUN, PHTHA, and OSIRIS, of the Egyptians, the BEL of the Chaldeans, the ADONAI of the Phoenicians, the ADONIS and APOLLO of the Greeks, became but personifications of the Sun, the regenerating Principle, image of that fecundity which perpetuates and rejuvenates the world’s existence.”

Again in the same book [ on page L ] it states the following;
Many deities have been associated with the sun. The Greeks believed that Apollo, Bacchus, Dionysos, Sabaccus, Hercules, Jason, Ulysses, Zeus, Uranus, and Vulcan partook of either the visible, or invisible attributes of the sun. The Norwegians regarded Balder the Beautiful as a solar deity, and Odin is often connected with the celestial orb, especially because of his one eye. Among the Egyptians, Osiris, Ra, Anubis, Hermes, and even the mysterious Ammon himself had points of resemblance with the solar disc.

In Masonry the sun has many symbols. One expression of the solar energy is Solomon, whose name SOL – OM - ON is the name for the Supreme Light in three different languages. Hiram Abiff, the CHiram ( Hiram) of the Chaldees, is also a solar deity, and the story of his attack and murder by the Ruffians, with its solar interpretation, will be found in the chapter The Hiramic Legend. A striking example of the important part which the sun plays in the symbols and rituals of Freemasonry is given by George Oliver, D.D., in his Dictionary of Symbolical Masonry, as follows:

‘‘ The sun rises in the east, and in the east is the place for the Worshipful Master. As the sun is the source of all light and warmth, so should the Worshipful Master enliven and warm the brethren to their work. Among the ancient Egyptians the sun was the symbol of divine providence.”
“ The coming of the sun was hailed with joy; the time of its departure was viewed as a period to be set aside for sorrow and unhappiness. This glorious, radiant orb of day, the true light which lighteth every man who cometh into the world, the supreme benefactor, who raised all things from the dead, who fed the hungry multitudes, who stilled the tempest, who after dying rose again and restored all things to life - this Supreme Spirit of humanitarianism and philanthropy is known to Christendom as Christ, the Redeemer of worlds, the Only Begotten of The Father, the Word made Flesh, and the Hope of Glory.”

Again commenting from Manly P Hall’s Book [ on page L I ] it states-
“ Thus the esotericism of pagandom was embodied in Christianity, although its keys are lost. The Christian church blindly follows ancient customs, and when asked for a reason gives superficial and unsatisfactory explanations, either forgetting or ignoring the indisputable fact that each religion is based upon the secret doctrines of its predecessor.”

And this above quote equally applies to Jehovah’s Witnesses today.
Relating to The Lamb of God – Jesus, as being The Lamb, and hence connected with the Zodiac sign of Aries; Manly P Hall’s book again states [ on page L I V ];

“Four of the signs of the zodiac have been permanently dedicated to the equinoxes and the solstices; and while the signs no longer correspond with the ancient constellations to which they were as signed, and from which they secured their names, they are accepted by modern astronomers as a basis of calculation. The vernal equinox is therefore said to occur in the constellation of Aries (the Ram). It is fitting that of all beasts a Ram should be placed at the head of the heavenly flock forming the zodiacal band. Centuries before the Christian Era, the pagans revered this constellation. Godfrey Higgins states: ‘‘ This constellation was called the ‘ Lamb of God.’ He was also called the ‘Saviour’ and was said to save mankind from their sins. He was always honoured with the appellation of ‘Dominus’ or ‘Lord ’. He was called the ‘Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world’. The devotees addressing him in their litany, constantly repeated the words, ‘O Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world, have mercy upon us. Grant us Thy peace’. “ Therefore, the Lamb of God is a title given to the sun, who is said to be reborn every year in the Northern Hemisphere in the sign of the Ram, although, due to the existing discrepancy between the signs of the zodiac and the actual star groups, it actually rises in the sign of Pisces.”
Christ was seen as the sacrificial lamb and this being so died in the time of Aries the Ram, or at Easter. Pisces is the sign of the fishes; and Jesus is The Great Fisher of men. [ see Matthew 4:19 ]

The relationship between this above comment about The Lamb ( Christ ) being a direct connection to the Zodiac sign of Aries and hence a sun god and the name of AMEN having solar ties is that the two are related to pagan sun worship. The Sun which is actually deified by the name AMEN, or AMUN, by the Egyptians and is the giver of Life to all who can see and believe. This is both a Pagan and idolatrous teaching.

Jesus is the son of The Sun of Righteousness in harmony with Malachi 4:1 & 2 which says;

“ For look! the day I coming that is burning like the furnace, and the presumptuous ones and all those doing wickedness must become as stubble. And the day that is coming will certainly devour them,” Jehovah of armies has said, “so that it will not leave to them either root or bough . And to you who are in fear of my name the sun of righteousness will certainly shine forth, with healing in its wings; and you will actually go forth and paw the round like fattened calves.”

Revelation 3 : 13 & 14 says about the AMEN being a person:

‘Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’ And to the angel of the congregation of Laodicea write: These are the things that THE AMEN says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God: “I know your deeds , that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or else hot. So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth. Because you say: “ I am rich and have acquired riches and do not know you are miserable and pitiable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire that you may become rich, and white outer garments that you may become dressed and that the shame of your nakedness may not become manifested, and eye salve to rub in your eyes that you may see.”’

John’s words here in Revelation 3, clearly indicates - The AMEN is a creation by God a faithful and true witness. Therefore IT IS A PERSON. It is A SUN DEITY as it offers gold, refined by fire. Gold is the metal used to denote the sun. White outer garments are also a symbol of solar cleanliness. If you wish to claim the AMEN is related to Jesus – the first and beginning of God’s creation – them that says it all. Jesus is a sun deity and hence a person - AMEN. By using AMEN your deifying Jesus to the level of a Godhead Trinity.
Quoting from Alexander Hislop’s book The Two Babylons [on page 41] under the section of The child in Egypt; he states about ‘the hidden god’ - Amoun, or Amen;-

“ Khons, in Egyptian, comes from the word that signifies “ to chase”…. Now this very name Khons, brought into contact with the Roman mythology, not only explains the meaning of a name in the Pantheon there, that hitherto has stood greatly in need of explanation, but causes that name, when explained, to reflect light back again on this Egyptian divinity, and to strengthen the conclusion already arrived at. The name to which I refer is the name of the Latin god Consus, who was in one aspect identified with Neptune, but who was also regarded as “the god of hidden counsels”, or “the concealer of secrets”, who was looked up to as the patron of horsemanship, and was said to have produced the horse. Who could be the “god of hidden counsels”, or the “concealer of secrets”, but Saturn, the god of the “mysteries”, and whose name as used at Rome, signified “The hidden one”? The father of Khons, or Khonso (as he was also called ), that is, Amoun, was, as we are told by Plutarch, known as “The hidden God”, and as father and son in the same triad have ordinarily a correspondence of character, this shows that Khons also must have been known in the very same character of Saturn, “The hidden one.”

Adding to this on pages 302 and 303 of the same book, The Two Babylons; Hislop states regarding the trinity godhead and that of association with Amun-Re;

“ Now, as this was the case in the later ages of the Mysteries, so it must have been the case from the very beginning; because they SET OUT, and necessarily set out, with the doctrine of the UNITY of the Godhead. This, of course, would give rise to no little absurdity and inconsistency in the very nature of the case. Both Wilkinson and Bunsen, to get rid of the inconsistencies they have met with in the Egyptian system, have found it necessary to have recourse to substantially the same explanation as I have done. Thus we find Wilkinson saying: “I have stated that Amun-re and other gods took the form of different deities, which, though it appears at first sight to present some difficulty, may readily be accounted for when we consider that each of those whose figures or emblems were adopted, was only an EMANATION, or deified attribute of the SAME GREAT BEING to whom they ascribed various characters, according to the several offices he was supposed to perform.” (WILKINSON, vol. iv. p. 245) The statement of Bunsen is to the same effect, and it is this “Upon these premises, we think ourselves justified in concluding that the two series of gods were originally identical, and that, in the GREAT PAIR of gods, all these attributes were concentrated, from the development of which, in various personifications, that mythological system sprang up which we have been already considering.” ( Bunsen vol. i. p. 418)

The below picture depicted in many Pyramid books and temples of Egypt, displays the Solar Winged Globe of immortality. This was a symbolism of the Solar Egyptian Trinity, of which Ammon AMEN was a part. By using this symbol and the name AMEN one is giving recognition to the trinity. It may be also noted that Jehovah’s Witnesses used this symbol on the front of their study books ( Charles Taze Russell’s set of - Studies in the Scriptures.) for many decades, denoting that they ignorantly worshipped the sun trinity of AMEN. Today the witnesses still pray to Jehovah saying “ AMEN ” at the end of prayer - thereby giving allegiance to the Triune Sun god - AMEN, RA, and OSIRUS.

HERE WAS INSERTED A PICTURE OF THE WINGED GLOBE SUN DISK OF AMMON FROM EGYPT.

The text under this Egyptian symbol of The Winged Globe of Egypt says; This symbol, which appears over the pylons or gates of many Egyptian palaces and temples, is emblematic of the three persons of The Egyptian trinity. The wings, the serpents, and the solar orb are the insignia of Ammon, Ra and Osiris.
[ Picture taken from Maurice’s Egyptian Antiquities; on Page X L I X of Manly P. Hall’s book - The Secret Teaching of all Ages. ]

As Isaiah 28:7-26 prophesies regarding a people false to God’s worship - which equally applies to the presumptuous Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses; those who have strayed from the true faith;
‘And these also because of wine they have gone astray and because of intoxicating liquor they have wandered about. Priest and prophet have gone astray because of intoxicating liquor, they have become confused as a result of the wine, they have wandered about as a result of the intoxicating liquor; they have gone astray in their seeing, they have reeled as to decision. For the tables themselves have all become full of filthy vomit - there is no place [without it ].

Whom will one instruct in know1edge, and whom will one make understand what has been heard? Those who have been weaned from the milk, those moved away from the breasts? For it is “command upon command, command upon command, measuring line upon measuring line, measuring line upon measuring line, here a little, there a little.” For by those stammering with their lips and by a different tongue” he will speak to this people, those to whom he has said: “ This is the resting place. Give rest to the weary one. And this is the place of ease,” but who were not willing to hear. And to them the word of Jehovah will certainly become “command upon command, command upon command, measuring line upon measuring line, measuring line upon measuring line, here a little, there a little,” in order that they may go and certainly stumble backwards and actually be broken and ensnared and caught.

Therefore hear the word of Jehovah, you braggarts, You rulers of this people who are in Jerusalem: Because you men have said: “We have concluded a covenant with Death; and with Sheol we have effected a vision; the overflowing flash flood, in case it should pass through, will not come to us, for we have made a lie our refugee and in falsehood we have concealed ourselves” ; therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said:

"Here I am laying as a foundation in Zion a stone,” a tried stone, the precious corner of a sure foundation.” No one exercising faith will get panicky. And I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the leveling instrument; and the hail must sweep away the refuge of a lie, and the waters themselves will flood out the very place of concealment. And your covenant with Death will certainly be dissolved, and that vision of yours with Sheol will not stand. The overflowing flash flood, when it passes through you must also become for it a trampling place. As often as it passes through - it will take you men away, because morning by morning it will pass through, during the day and during the night; and it must become nothing but a reason for quaking to make others understand what has been heard.”

"For the couch has proved too short for stretching oneself on, and the woven sheet it self is narrow when wrapping oneself up. For Jehovah will rise up just as at Mount Perazim, he will be agitated just as in the low plain near Gibeon, that he may do his deed his deed is strange and that he may work his work - his work is unusual. And now do not show yourselves scoffers, in order that your bands may not grow strong, for there is an extermination, even something decided upon, that I have heard of from the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies, for all the land."

"Give ear, you men, and listen to my voice; pay attention and listen to my saying. Is it all day long that the plower plows in order to sow seed, that he loosens and harrows his ground? Does he not, when he has smoothed out its surface, then scatter black cumin and sprinkle the cumin, and must he not put in wheat, millet, and barley in the appointed place, and spelt as his boundary? And one corrects him according to what is right. His own God instructs him.’


And any polluted prayer to a SUN TRINITY is therefore false worship, a false gift offering, a lame sick animal for sacrifice; as in line with Malachi 1: 6 to 10 ;

“ ‘A son, for his part, honours a father; and a servant, his grandmaster.” So if I am a father, where is the honour to me? And if I am a grand master, where is the fear of me?’ Jehovah of armies has said to you, O priests who are despising my name.’
“ ‘And you have said: “In what way have we despised your name? ”
“ ‘ By presenting upon my altar polluted bread.’
“ ‘And you have said: “In what way have we polluted you? ”
“ ‘By YOUR saying: “ The table” of Jehovah is something to be despised.” And when YOU present a blind animal for sacrificing: “ It is nothing bad.” And when YOU present a lame animal or a sick one: “ It is nothing bad.” ’ ”
“Bring it near, please, to your governor. Will he find pleasure in you, or will he receive you kindly? ” Jehovah of armies has said.
“And now, please, soften the face of God, that he may show us favour. From YOUR hand this has occurred. Will he receive any of YOU men kindly? ” Jehovah of armies has said.
“Who also is there among YOU that will shut the doors ? And YOU men will not light my altar - for nothing. No delight do I have in YOU,” Jehovah of armies has said, “and in the gift offering from YOUR hand I take no pleasure.”


As Paul stated in 1st Corinthians 10: 7- 12, 14, 18 – 22 & 31-33; to the first century Christians who were getting pagan idolatry of Mithraism mixed with Christ’s teachings;

“ Neither become idolaters, as some of them did; just as it is written: “ The people sat down to eat and drink, and they got up to have a good time.” Neither let us practice fornication, as some of them committed fornication, only to fall, twenty-three thousand [ of them] in one day. Neither let us put Jehovah to the test, as some of them put [ him ] to the test,’ only to perish by the serpents. Neither be murmurers, just as some of them murmured,” only to perish by the destroyer. Now these things went on befalling them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived.”
‘ Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall.”
‘ Therefore, my beloved ones, flee from idolatry. I speak as to men with discernment; judge for yourselves what I say.’
‘ Look at that which is Israel in a fleshly way: Are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers with the altar? What, then, am I to say? That what is sacrificed to an idol ( AMEN is an IDOL ) is anything, or that an idol is anything? No; but I say that the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons,’ and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “ the table of Jehovah ” and the table of demons. Or “are we inciting Jehovah to jealousy ”? We are not stronger than he is, are we?’
‘ Therefore, whether you are eating or drinking or doing anything else, do all things for God’s glory. Keep from becoming causes for stumbling to Jews as well as Greeks and to the congregation of God, even as I am pleasing all people in all things, not seeking my own advantage but that of the many, in order that they might get saved.’
______________________________________

Conclusion
______________________________________

It is apparent to any who are open minded and sincerely seeking truth to the origin of Christian belief and doctrine; will be able to see from the references shown; that the word AMEN as said at the end of Prayers within Church congregations; is a derivative of the Egyptian sun god AMUN, or AMMON. One who states this at the end of a Prayer is giving a sanction to the words spoken in the prayer by the authority of the sun god AMEN. Jesus would have known this as he too is a sun god deity like his father Jehovah.

So too the name of SOL – OM – ON in keeping with Jehovah’s triune sun worship within the Israelites, he too was a derivative of the divine solar trinity of the three sun gods SOL, OM, and ON.

AMEN, or Amon, is none other than a part of a solar trinity as taught in Egypt. Worshipped also by the AMMON-ites, Amon became a recognised Solar deity and trinity at the time of Moses. Since Moses was also taught by the Pharaoh, and trained as a magick practicing priest ( which makes him technically a WARLOCK just like Daniel and Jesus ) it is not be surprising that the word AMEN was introduced into Jewish belief and latter Christianised teaching borrowed from earlier pagan worship. Just as Christmas was a Solar festival to the new born SATURN-alian Sun god of Rome, who by the way is AMEN-Re; this is a way of ratifying divine authority to any prayer devoted to a deity. As Jehovah, an inferior moon god but yet still a form of solar deity; chose to influence deceptively when it suited him as “another god” to various nations or individuals. By allowing the use of the name of the sun god AMEN proliferated his agenda.

And so any Christian who makes use of the name AMEN in personal and congregational prayer would in fact be giving veneration to a Triune Sun god. If your conscience allows a Christian to accept this practice then your faith is in vain. As the Bible uses the word AMEN in various places such as Deuteronomy 27:15-26; 1st Chronicles 16:36; 1st Corinthians 1: 20; and so forth; then clearly the Bible is telling us that God allows its use and approves of it which indicates he is a sun god and a part of a trinity, or if the trinity is false then Jehovah’s Witnesses have a magor problem with their belief system and doctrine. As Jesus said to the Samaritan women at the well “ You worship what you do not know.” To really know God you have to know what AMEN signifies otherwise your faith is in vain.

Again Paul stated in 1st Corinthians 14:16, 17 & 20 about speaking in tongues and wether another could understand:

“If you offer praise with the gift of the spirit, how will the man occupying the seat of the ordinary person say AMEN to your giving thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? True you give thanks in a fine way, but the other man is not being built up. Brothers, do not become young children in powers of understanding, but babes as to badness; yet full grown in powers of understanding.”

Christians were explicitly told by the Messiah how to pray in Mathew 6 :5 to 13 and part of verse 24.
Take note whether Jesus used the word AMEN in his prayer, as he knew full well what it meant;

“Also, when YOU pray, YOU must not be as the hypocrites; because they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the broad ways to be visible to men. Truly I say to YOU, They are having their reward in full. You, however, when you pray, go into your private room” and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret; then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you. But when praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words. So, do not make yourselves like them, for God YOUR Father knows what things YOU are needing” before ever YOU ask him.
“You must pray, then, this way:
“Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. Give us today our bread for this day; and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the wicked one.’

“ No one can slave for two *******; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other. You cannot slave for God and for riches. Stop judging that you might not be judged, and with the measure you are measuring out, they will measure out to you. Why do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, allow me to extract the straw from your own eye’; when look a rafter is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First extract the straw from your own eye and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother’s eye.”

Did Jesus say or indicate to use the word AMEN in his model Prayer??? NO !!! and therefore Christians should logically not use it. His words were plain as day; being as bright as the sun in the sky.

And finally Jesus said to all his followers who believe they are self righteously better that every one else in Mathew 5 : 43 to 48;

“You have heard it was said: ‘You must love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to you: “continue to love your enemies and pray for those persecuting you”; that you may prove yourselves sons of your father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and the good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. For if you love those loving you, what reward does it have? Are not the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if you greet your brothers only what extraordinary thing are you doing ? Are not the people of the nations doing the same thing? You must accordingly be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect.”


If you see this as document discussion as a message of doctrinal persecution against your faith; or that the writer is attacking you, setting himself up as an enemy of your truth; then it would be wise to pray for me in line with the above, in order for me to be saved. And as 1st Timothy 3: 7 says in summing up about a man’s office within the congregation;

“ Moreover he should have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the devil.”

As an outsider - I could bring reproach and a very negative testimony against your Watchtower Organisation, if I so desired; and hence appear as ‘a snare from the devil’. But that is not my motive.

My agenda and motive, whatever others might think; is to find The Truth wherever it may be. On that basis there won’t be much point to all this discussion, if you are not serious about finding The TRUTH. IF you are truly God’s chosen people, then establishing the truth won’t be an issue, but like the Berean’s of old ‘examining the scriptures to see if these things were so’.

Just as the spiritual man Jesus refuted at times with the opposing Pharisees about the interpretation of the mosaic law; so too; me as the spiritual man EXAMINES ALL THINGS in order to come to know the mind of Christ. [ see 1 Cor 2 :15 & 16 ] By one man the face of another is sharpened, just as iron sharpens iron. [ Proverbs 27: 17 ]

I know you believe you have “the truth”; but I don’t believe you do; otherwise I would join your Organization. Hence if you can convince me otherwise ‘so be it’. AMEN! come Lord Jesus. [ see Revelation 22:20 ]

Finish!



Note - 1/. All scriptures cited are from The New world Translation of The Holy Scriptures.
2/. All original copy references are available for one’s perusal.

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THIS NEXT SECTION WAS WRITTEN PRIMARILY IN ANSWER TO THE SUBJECT FOR THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES WHO RECENTLY CAME TO MY DOOR.

AMEN
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NOTE - Your original comments in light text - mine are darker text, as marked with the ‘K’ . The comments of the Jehovah's Witnesses are marked as JW.
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JW -This word in both English and Greek is a transliteration from the Hebrew ‘a-men’ . The meaning is “so be it,” or “surely.” The Hebrew root word from which it is drawn ( ‘aman’) means “ be faithful; be trustworthy.”

K - The English word owes its derivative of the Hebrew root AMEN which is again a derivative of the Egyptian AMUN which was the personification of The SUN. For example the name derivatives such as ‘Ammon-ites’ and the Egyptian King AMEN-ophis. Amenophis is mentioned on Pages 219 ( Chapter 15), page 227 ( Chapter 26 ) and page 230 ( Chapter 32 ) in Book 1 of ‘ The Antiquity of The Jews Against Apion’ by Flavius Josephus. He states on page 230 that; Moses and Joseph were scribes under the King AMENophis. As scribes they were obviously familiar with the word AMEN from Egyptian Kings and Deities. The root derivative ‘AMAN’ is a latter derivative of the older Egyptian ‘AMEN’ which minimises the meaning of the original word. Again this is Jewish superstition creeping in; just as with the correct pronunciation of God’s name and its real origin. As the Jews kept verbal records in certain sacred matters only [ eg: The Kabbalah ] the real meanings eventually became lost; just as a fact gets distorted and becomes in time a slanderous rumour when circulated about in the local neighbourhood. So too with the word AMEN.

See also my additional [ 9 page ] document quoting the Dictionary meaning and other added texts. [ It is far from complete, but still covers the point of discussion.]
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JW - In the Hebrew Scriptures the word is used as a solemn expression to obligate oneself legally to an oath or covenant and its consequences (Nu 5:22; De 27:15-26; Ne 5:13 ), also as a solemn expression to subscribe to an expressed prayer ( 1 Ch 16:36 ), to an expression of praise ( Ne 8:6 ), or to an expressed purpose ( 1 Ki 1:36; Jer 11 :5 ).

K - To whom is the OATH, or Covenant, legally Binding ? Between the one giving the prayer and the Deity being prayed too ? If so the prayer is being sanctioned with an Authority. But whose Authority ? That of AMEN’s ???
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JW - Each of the first four books, or collections, of the Psalms concludes with this expression, perhaps indicating that it was customary for the congregation of Israel to join in at the end of the song or psalm with an “Amen.” Ps 41 : 13; 72: 19; 89:52; 106:48.

K- Yes, agreed. It was customary for the Hebrews to use the word AMEN. They would have obviously learnt about it from Pharaoh’s Sun worship in Egypt and other neighbouring nations. Do you think Pharaoh would have tolerated Hebrews worshipping a foreign ( Jehovah the moon god ) god ? Of course not - which is why he refused to let the nation go into the wilderness to serve Jehovah. The Sun god was the true god to the Egyptians, just as Calf worship was taken up by the Hebrews when Moses went up to Mount Sinai to receive the tablets. The Hebrews were a stupid, stiff necked and backward race who swapped gods like their clothes. They gave in to the first sign of pressure from another nation to worship a foreign god when it suited them. Their many acts of idolatry, and unfaithfulness was support for this claim. For example of Israel’s twelve tribes - ten left Jehovah to worship false gods and two tribes kept to his law. They went after Baal of Peor for a time and followed calf worship – etc, etc, etc. So they picked up the use of the word AMEN in their indoctrinated travels and lost its original meaning; just like they lost the meaning of the correct pronunciation of their god’s name. This is both Irresponsible and Stupid.
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JW -The Hebrew word ‘a-man’ is applied to Jehovah as “ the faithful God ” ( De 7:9; Isa 49:7 ) and describes his reminders and promises as “ trustworthy ” and “ faithful.” ( Ps 19:7; 89:28, 37 )

K – Rubbish ! This is an ASSUMPTION upon scripture. There is no reference of proof whatsoever that mentions A-MAN as applicable to the term ‘the faithful God’ in these specific texts. And to whom is God ‘faithful and trustworthy’ too - himself ? Certainly not man.
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JW -In the Christian Greek Scriptures the title “Amen” is applied to Christ Jesus as “the faithful and true witness.” ( Re 3:14 ).

K – Interesting ! This scripture DOES NOT specifically denote Jesus as applying to the AMEN. It states The Amen is ‘the beginning of the creation by God’. This beginning of God’s creation is not Jesus, but the AMEN; another very different and distinct Creation. And it is used here in REV 3:14 as a NOUN, or a THING, an OBJECT, and not as an ADJECTIVE term; as you are applying it. This text in Revelation applies to John 1:1 to 4 which says in verse 4 ‘the word was the light and life of men’. This denotes again ‘the life’ is ‘the light’ - a Solar deity, or sun. If you are applying the text of Revelation 3: 14 to JESUS you are in effect saying HE IS A SUN god as supported by John 1:1 to 4 and 14. Either way there is a third person AMEN with Jehovah and Jesus, or Jesus is a SUN God.

On the other hand - If you are applying the terms ‘the faithful God’ and ‘true or trustworthy god’ as referring to JEHOVAH in - De 7:9; Isa 49:7; Ps 19:7; 89:28, 37 - Then in effect you are setting up a basis for some [ eg: Born Again Christians and Mormons ] to find loose support for a version of the trinity by stating “Jesus is in effect Jehovah”. Poor reasoning. None of these above texts are applying to the word AMEN. That is your assumption only upon scripture. Do you really know who or what you are worshipping so that you can really be witnesses for Jehovah ??? You can’t represent and call on a god you don’t really know.
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JW - Jesus made singular use of the expression in his preaching and teaching, using it very often to preface a statement of fact, a promise, or a prophecy, thereby emphasizing the absolute truthfulness and reliability of what he said. ( Mt 5:18; 6:2, 5, 16; 24:34 )

K - Where in any of these above texts does the word ‘Truly’ say or imply the word AMEN as being used ? NONE !!! Read for yourself. Therefore until more support is cited, I can only conclude this is an assumption upon scripture based on your distortion of the word’s origin. This reasoning is similar to the superstitious Jews who would not say GOD’s name and applied the titles ‘LORD’ or ‘GOD’ wherever Jehovah’s name YHWH should have read; and so, give the reader a superficial understanding of scriptural text. You have repeated the same logic in the above case. This reasoning not only confuses, but is Dangerous !!!
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JW - In these cases the Greek word (‘a-man’) is translated as “truly” (KJ, “verily”) or, when doubled, as throughout the book of John, “most truly.” ( Joh 1:51 ) Jesus’ use of “amen” in this way is said to be unique in sacred literature, and it was consistent with his divinely given authority - Mt 7:29.

K – Disagree. Again the same flawed logic. Jesus use of the word AMEN was borrowed from much older beliefs. He was an Essene which held a “Gnostic” belief system. GNOSTIC is the Greek word for GNOSIS or ‘Knowing’. The Essenes were ‘Gnostics’ or Today we call them ‘Occultists’. Occult means ‘that which is hidden’; ‘the hidden wisdom’ which is Gnosis. Jesus had ‘ The Knowing ’ and hence was a Gnostic. In this way he was ‘the light of the world’ by his divine knowledge. He believed in ‘the triune solar deity’ just as did all Gnostics. Study up on the origins of Sun worship. Read up on The Roman and especially The Egyptian Mysteries. For example - RA was deemed ‘the sacred word’, somewhat like the word LOGOS. He was part of the triune godhead of The SUN - RA, OSIRUS and AMEN.
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JW - However, as Paul shows at 2 Corinthians 1:19,20, the title “Amen” applies to Jesus not merely as a truth speaker or as a true prophet and spokesman of God but also as the one in whom all of God’s promises find fulfilment.

K – Again I disagree. I see the text saying the AMEN is separate and distinct from Jesus and therefore a part of a Triune god head. This text indirectly supports the trinity. Again The AMEN is a NOUN and hence in this case a person.
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JW - His course of faithfulness and obedience even to a sacrificial death confirms and makes possible the bringing to reality of all the promises and declarations of God’s purpose. He was the living Truth of those revelations of God’s purpose, the things to which God had sworn.—Compare Joh 1:14,17; 14:6; 18:37.

K – Based on the above, without offence - I still remain unconvinced that you have answered my question deeply enough about the origin of the word AMEN.

In fact I am more convinced now with what you have shown here; in that it reinforces my own understanding that AMEN is referring to another person separate and distinct from Jehovah, and that it is applicable to the solar, or SUN deity whom Jesus Christ represented whilst in human form. Jesus is a SUN god – The light of the world hence he referred to himself in that manner, as he knew the true origin of his prehuman existence. ( See John 8 : 12). On this basis the Romans knew the origin of the sun and hence intermingled Sun worship with Christianity.

So today we have the Christmas ( or the CHRIST MASS ) story intermingled with the birth of Jesus the new born SUN. Christianity is nothing more than The old Egyptian and Roman SUN worship reinvented to appeal to modern people. On this basis I also claim - Jehovah’s Witnesses have, possibly in ignorance; modernized practices of the older and pagan sun worship.
Unfortunately - Ignorance of the historical facts about Christianity and its origins doesn’t let one off the hook respecting the committing of spiritual fornication. This false idolatry tantamounts to The Watchtower Society being aligned with The Whore of Babylon and there- fore a part of Christendom. The use of AMEN is one such case. The teaching of Christians being Christ’s disciples, is also another case of SUN adoration. So if what you say in your books about freeing one from false religion is true, as in keeping with Revelation 18:4; would it then be appropriate for one of Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses to knowingly associate with an organization who is unclear about the nature of their god and uses the word AMEN as a form of praise or sanctioned authority in prayer ??? With its original meaning being distorted and lost to the majority of Christians, how can one really say they have The Truth ???

In Revelation 19: 10; the apostle John was obviously unsure about whom to give his worship too; when he “fell down to worship the angel”. Again in Hebrews 1: 6, Paul states God’s Angels worship Jesus. To be worshipped he has to be given respect and hallowed obeisance as ‘a god’ as shown in John 1:1.

Obviously ( to me ) Jesus as ‘The Divine Christos’ or ‘Anoited One’ is a part of solar Trinity. There are many, many, Trinities of Divinities; just as there are many, many, gods. Christ is attached to just another one of these MANY trinities. As to who or what is the true one it depends on what you term as ‘TRUE’. If it is related to ‘the supreme being and divine creator of all ’ as being the true one – NO I strongly disagree here - Jehovah is not the true god, knor Christ the true son, nor the holy spirit the true spirit. These are various demi-gods and demi-forces. We can discuss this at another time as it relates to ‘The Divine Name’ Brochure, which is, I’m sorry to say - very superficial. FINISH FOR THIS SECTION.
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HERE ARE A FEW MORE BITS ON THE SUBJECT. TAKE PARTICULAR NOTE OF THE JEWISH USE OF THE WORD.

AMEN - Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
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This article is about the Hebrew word; for other meanings see Amen (disambiguation).

The word Amen (Tiberian Hebrew אמן ’Āmēn "So be it; truly", Standard Hebrew אמן Amen, Arabic آمين ’Āmīn) is a declaration of affirmation found in the Hebrew Bible and in the Qur'an. It has always been in use within Judaism. It has been generally adopted in Christian worship as a concluding formula for prayers and hymns. In Islam, it is the standard ending to surat al-Fatiha. Common English translations of the word amen include: "Verily", "Truly", "So be it", and "Let it be".

Biblical usages.

Three distinct Biblical usages may be noted:
1. Initial Amen, referring back to words of another speaker, e.g. 1 Kings i. 36; Revelation xxii. 20.
2. Detached Amen, the complementary sentence being suppressed, e.g. Neh. v. 13; Revelation v. 14 (cf. 1 Corinthians xiv. 16).
3. Final Amen, with no change of speaker, as in the subscription to the first three divisions of the Psalter and in the frequent doxologies of the New Testament Epistles.

Amen in Judaism.
In Judaism, it is taught that the word A.M.E.N. is an ACRONYM for A[l] (or El), Me[lech], N[e'eman] meaning "Lord (or God), King, [who is] Trustworthy." It is related to the Hebrew word emuna or "faith" with the same lingiustic root, implying that one is affirming with, and of, "the faith" of Judaism (and its belief in Monotheism).

Amen in Christianity
The uses of amen ("verily") in the Gospels form a peculiar class; they are initial, but often lack any backward reference. Jesus used the word to affirm his own utterances, not those of another person, and this usage was adopted by the church. The liturgical use of the word in apostolic times is attested by the passage from 1 Corinthians cited above, and Justin Martyr (c. 150) describes the congregation as responding "amen," to the benediction after the celebration of the Eucharist. Its introduction into the baptismal formula (in the Greek Orthodox Church it is pronounced after the name of each person of the Trinity) is probably later. Among certain Gnostic sects Amen became the name of an angel.
In the King James Bible, the word amen is preserved in a number of contexts.

Notable ones include:
•The catechism of curses of the Law found in Deuteronomy 27.
•A double amen ("amen and amen") occurs in Psalms 89.
•The custom of closing prayers with amen originates in the Lord's Prayer at Matthew 6:13.
•Amen occurs in several doxology formulas in Romans 1:25, 9:5, 11:36, 15:33, and several times in Chapter 16.
•It concludes all of Paul's general epistles.
•In Revelation 3:14, Jesus calls himself, "the Amen, the faithful and true witness."
•Amen concludes the New Testament at Rev. 22:21.

In some Christian churches, the amen corner or amen section is any subset of the congregation likely to call out "Amen!" in response to points in a preacher's sermon. Metaphorically, the term can refer to any group of heartfelt traditionalists or supporters of an authority figure.
In American English, the word "amen" has two pronunciations, ah-men or ay-men. The ah-men pronunciation is the one that is used in performances of classical music and in churches with highly formal rituals and liturgy. The ay-men pronunciation is associated with evangelical Christianity, and the pronunciation that is typically sung in gospel music. Christians in the amen corner are unlikely to call out "Ah-men."

Amen in Islam.
Muslims use the word "ameen" not only add it after reciting the first surah (Al Fatiha) of the Qur'an, but also when writing letters, &c., and repeat it three times, often with the word qimtir, as a kind of talisman.

Paganism and Freemasonry.
In Neo-Paganism and Wicca, the phrase Amen is not normally used, being seen as Christian in origin. However, the rather archaic phrase So mote it be is often used instead, with basically the same meaning (mote is an archaic form of may). This possibly derives from Freemasonry, where in certain rituals the phrase Amen, so mote it be is used.

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May I say with assurance that anyone who does not want to be saved, won’t be. God is polite and respects the wishes of the individual. The individual has exercised their freedom, and ultimately responsible for the consequences of their own action. The implications of being unsaved are unthinkable.

WHY ??? I don't have any problem imagining a life without salvation. To me such a "fate " seems both reasonable and normal. It's a case of - If you don't do what God says, YOU WILL DIE. This is 'a fear tactic' and another form of terrorism. Where is the love of God in this. I see him as a terrorist - literally. God's creations are imperfect from the very beginning and he even regreted ( guilt and remorse ) that he made man. This implies he made a MAGOR MISTAKE - hence wipeing man out at the flood. So he only has himself to blame, for OUR IMPERFECTION. HE claims he is the CREATOR and should take responsibility for his ball's ups with creation. [ refer to Genesis 6:6&7; 8:21; Psalms 110:4, etc. ]
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With reference to "new age" beliefs and doctrine. I offer the following compilation from my research. Hopefully it describes truthfully what the new age movement is about, and where a Gnostic view has its limitation.

Why is it limited in veiw ??? I don't believe so. I find it answers satasfactorily more questions than christianity - hence the reason I left the church. Christianity just can't perform in a modernized society. It's a HAS BEEN belief system.
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It is very diverse, and because of its diversity, each new age person can hold a different view, and so at the same time both be correct and incorrect at the same time, and therefore agree and disagree with what I write below. If that is confusing: Read on, it gets more so….. (At the start I must emphasize that I in no way associate myself or agree with the new age movement). I have tried to present this objectively.

SORRY - The NEW AGE - even though I don't agree with all its concepts - has the beauty of Diversity. Christianity is no different as you can interpret the bible in many different ways. This is why there are SO MANY Christian Faiths. NONE can agree on many points; which is why groups like Jehovah's witnesses are not a part of The world council ofr churches. They see them as satanic and a part of false religion. They can quote numerous scriptures to prove it( see Revelation 18:4 as an example.). Christ was very vague and ambiguous about various predictions of his own and that is the basic nature of a an Occultist. Greek words like "Parousia" which can have a double meaning such as "presence"( current tense of 'NOW' ) or "comming" (meaning a 'FUTURE' tense ) in Matthew 24:3 is a sorce of doctrinal contention with adventist groups.{ Just look at how many ways you can interpret books like Zechariah, Daniel and Revelation to name a few.} Nothing is ever precise not even amongst fundamentalist veiws, who take scripture on literal face value.
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New age spirituality is a personal search for spiritual tools to overcome hurt and realise individual hope. Its theme is about empowerment to live in the ordinary world by awakening spirituality. It is done by sampling a range of spiritual ideas and disciplines and includes ideas such as angels, astrology, clairvoyance, mind powers, rebirthing, reincarnation, spirit guides, tarot to name a few.

YES I agree here - So what is wrong with that You are entitled to your beleifs as is every one else. You push that right and expect to be allowed to exercise it. So why not those adhereing to New Age beliefs. Many in the New Age have left Christianity because it does nothing for them spiritually. Salvation is not the big deal in spirituality - finding one's true self is. I am no different in that respect.
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New age spirituality has two basic areas. The first draws on Hindu-Buddhist ideas about oneness with reality. Reality is a bit like a lake. A person is like a drop of water with individual consciousness, when the drops come together it forms a lake. So if all reality is one, it is a small step to saying that we are all God. But here God is not a personal being distinct from creation, but an impersonal force permeating everything.

Yes your correct in this regard - BUT that idea of GOD being every where, or omnipresent; is the PAGAN IDEA of Pantheism.
Christians are technically Pantheists in that regard.

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Empowerment to live happens when we tap into our "higher self" or inner divinity. Various spiritual tools are used to waken this consciousness.

Do you have a problem with this concept ???
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The second area of new age spirituality is aligned with Gnosticism. There is secret, mystical knowledge for the empowerment to live. It identifies with mystery religions, guardian angels and spirit guides etc.

Those who embrace new age ideals use as much or as little as they need for their own beliefs, requirement and comfort.

So what !!! You embrace angels as well and the holy spirit as your guide, so whats the underlying difference ??? You also have a mystical knowledge and have sacred secrets for those going to heaven. A sacred secret is a form of inside mystical knowledge. Another term for the same idea.{ refer to Romans 16: 25 & 1st Cor 4:1 about Christains having acess to 'sacred secrets' or mystical knowledge.}

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New agers consider that we are on the threshold of "the Aquarian Age" where universal love and harmony will reign.

So what does Matthew 24 : 3 say ? It uses the word AGE ( Gk:Parousia ) in many Bible translations. Jesus came into human form at the beginning of the PISCEAN AGE. He also taught Love and harmony. Isn't anyone else alloud to discuss an age of Love and harmony - or do Chjristians have 'a monopoly on Love'. The age of the fish - which is why Born-Agains use the fish as their symbol on the back of their cars and in their businesses and Catholics eat fish on friday and the Bishop's Mitre is from the fish god Dagon. The NEW age is the next age after Pisces which is of course Aquarius. Aquarius is all about self and chaos. Its one of the "satanic" signs. But this does not make new ager's satanic. Study about 'the prescession of the equinoxes' an astrological fact of science.
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They consider that modern rationalist, scientific explanations of reality are inadequate, and that we have suppressed our spiritual self.

We have suppressed our spiritual self. Christians for an example, are 2000 years out of date in their beliefs and are stubbornly crystalized in they ways and mindset. they still see women as inferior to men and have to be SUBJECT to their headship. They still see outsiders as Satanic and to be avoided and so forth. Our modern science has a lot to catch up on and even many Christians claim 'Science is still inadequate for our day'. Creationists for example, try to intergrate the two subjects. Man is always learning and will never know everything - but does that make him or New Agers wrong for believing as you have stated above ???
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New agers consider that we are on the threshold of "the Aquarian Age" where universal love and harmony will reign. They consider that modern rationalist, scientific explanations of reality are inadequate, and that we have suppressed our spiritual self.

So do Christians !!! - They reject science all to often, when it suits them. They even dispute over what is considered to be Noah's ark. ITs not a boat but a box in shape; other s say its a boat the bible is silent on is fundamental shape. Some Christians beleive the snake in Eden had legs - because of interpretions with "on the belly ye will go" in Genesis 3 : 14. The bible does not say Jonah and the whale but a BIG FISH. It's all about 'straining out the Nat and gulping down the camel' with Christians. Just like the Pharasees in Jesus day. IT's all about FAITH. And faith doesn't need slid evidence; which leads to all to often to BLIND FAITH. For example genetics has revealed we are similar to apes and cows and that Homosexuals are genetically born that way and that AIDS is a man made Bioweapon ( nature magazine June 1968 ).

The bible condems Homosexuals in Romans 1 and yet we have Christian Homeosexuals in churches within the USA.

UFO's and life on other planets. NASA has found life on mars but where is that in the bible. It's not its silent. Millions of dollars are spent on the SETI research. Did Jesus die for aliens ?
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Truth is not a matter of dry, rationalist propositions but truth is whatever you discover works for you.

Totally correct !!! And christianity has failed to work for me an millions of others world wide. It has magor doctrinal issues to sort out before it can convert the world.
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In a global village of diverse cultures and beliefs, new age seekers celebrate the unity of humanity.

And is that wrong, is it ??? What does Daniel 2:44 state "God will set up a kingdom that will not be bought to ruin and it will stand to times indefinite". A ONE WORLD THEOCRATIC ORDER under Christ as the KING "who will rule the nations with a ROD OF IRON." ( Revelation 2: 26 & 27 ) and all those who fail to do as they are told will be thrown into the lake of fire. ( Revelation 19:11-21 )
That to me sounds like Jesus is a Dictator and Christians are fear riddled sheeplike followers with the same mindset.
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New age people are convinced that there is a spiritual dimension to life. Like Christians they agree that science and technology cannot fully answer the questions about the meaning of life. Most are biblically illiterate but allude to biblical scripture.

Most Christians are biblically illiterate as well; and are illiterate when it comes to serious reserach and the origin of their own beliefs. For example Christmas and easter - pagan celibrations to do with the XMAS saturnalia of sun worship and Easter fertility rites of Arstarte or ishtar. Yet all Christians bare afew celebrate Jesus birth on the 25th December - a Roman holiday for the Black sun. Deluded in faith and practicers of thisngs you know nothing about. That makes you hyppocrites to say the least. What about your wedding rings you all wear on your fingers - Pagan origin again. The throwing of sugar almonds and confetti at a Church; that is fertility worship. And again saying AMEN at the end of a prayer tatantamounts top giving authority to 'the sun god AMEN'. And the list goes on and on. So your reasoning is a classic case of "the pot calling the kettle black".
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Many feel Jesus is an important spiritual teacher and are willing to find out more about Him. Their main problem is not Jesus himself, but the institution of the Church.

Yes well; look at the inquisition and the crusades. Is that Love. That's Murder. I did quote Revelation as to Jesus being a dictator who throws non beleivers into a lake of fire.
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Many of their ideas for a better world are found in the prophets’ vision of the new heaven and new earth (Isiah.65: 17-25; 2 Peter. 3:13, Revalation.21). When the kingdom of God comes, Jesus will ultimately fulfil what new age looks to.

I'm sorry to say; but Jesus ain't comming. He's a dead issue. The Jews are still waiting, and will wait, and wait, and wait, to all eternity.
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Is it possible to link astrology with Jesus?

YES, most definitely, without a doubt. Many books have been written on the subject - but of course they are not by Christians so you wouldn't read them. It might turn you into an apostate.
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Is it possible to share how at the birth of Jesus, the Magi, (who were astrologers), followed a star and came to the one who made the universe.

YES !!!

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When the Magi found Jesus they did not opt for horoscopes, they gave themselves to him in adoration.

How do you know this to be correct ??? On what basis are you making this claim ???

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Astrology tries to explain your personality from the moment of your birth. The astrologer goes to the metaphorical "rocks" of the universe to find meaning!

And the Genetisist goes to one's DNA to find out why you get sick. So what!!!
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Christians go directly to the One who made the rocks. Why settle for second best when you can go directly to the Manufacturer?

Do they ???? How do you know its Jesus answereing your prayers and not some clever spirit of delusion??? Do you really know how to TEST THE SPIRITS ???

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There is great weakness in new age concepts. EG. By using the power of the mind it is claimed that we all create our own reality. That is, whatever we think comes into reality. If you choose successful thoughts, you will be successful. If you think negatively, then you choose to be a "victim". This is a very self-centred and supports the powerful and does nothing for the powerless.

Not True!!! Powerless persons become empowered by understanding the mind's processes of creating one's own reality. Jesus labelled the same as "what a man sows, he reaps". as for the powerless that is why self development courses are run - in order to teach them skills toward self empowerment. Masny feel disempowwered when they leave christianity as they have no crutch for life support.

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Jesus offers the model of servanthood.

Slavery !!! It's better to RULE in hell, than to SERVE in heaven.
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From Jesus' resurrection we see how God values the entire person. Jesus' calls us to live out tough values by caring for the powerless.

So he was a Humanitarian. I care for the powerless as well, where I can. Its called helping others; a charitable work.
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The New Age movement has no external source for authority.

WRONG !!! Whether you accept these authorities or not - who do you think Maitreya is, Buddha, the Ascended *******, Metatron, The watchers or spirit Angel guides, Ashtar and many, many, others I can name. These are various authorities for many New Agers. They are not mine though.
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They have an internal one (the god within). The individual is the standard of truth, saying that "truth as an objective reality simply does not exist"

So one belief is 'Exoteric' and the other is 'Esoteric'. A Diamond is still a diamond, no matter which facet you look at it from.
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New Agers confuse the Creator with God's creation and think that "God" (whoever he, she, it, is) is part of creation, not separate from it.

YES I agree - all is connected. Creation is one big pool of many life forms.
The etymology for the word 'GOD' comes from the anglo-saxon root word meaning 'GUD' or 'Good'. God is 'the good side' of evil. HE or It is polarised. God "is male" and "the female" is the evil to some. This is the subject of Dualism. Evil comes for the sumerian word meaning Darkness. Good is light and Evil is darkness. Satan is God's other half. Darkness was in existence before the light. (Genesis 1: 2 ) Without the devil, God is "nothing" he is no longer GOOD or EVIL, but just is - neutral. God owes the devil "his existance" in so much that it is understood the devil or dragon created everything. If God is positive and the devil negative they make "a battery" with a charge. Have you ever had a one terminal battery ??? I believe this personally. Don't confuse the devil with the fallen angel Lucifer - that's another subject altogether.

BUT that does not mean I worship or should worship the devil. Sorry Christianity has it back to front.
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They borrow monism from Eastern religions, "all is One." There is only one essence in the universe, everyone and everything is part of that essence. Everything is a different form of that essence.

True - even quantum physics agrees to this one.
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There is the "Christ Consciousness" which is an office rather than an individual. This idea of "Christ Consciousness" asserts that Jesus was not the only Christ, but that He equipped Himself to receive the "Christ Consciousness" (He was a great "spiritual master" who attained Christ Consciousness), as supposedly also did Buddha, Krishna, and Mohammed etc.

Yes so !!! What do you think Christ's Kingdom is all about ??? Just that and more.
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There is no place for "sin" in the new ageism, because there is no "God" as such to rebel against.

Not entirely true. Some satanist's believe along this veiw. We all make mistakes called human error and we all get sick. We all take responsibility for our actions. But whether we should answer to some faceless deity called " whatever " is another point.
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There are no rules or absolute moral imperatives.

There are numerous cosmic laws to obey - otherwise you reap what you so. IE: the law of gravity. "Love one's neighbour as one self " and so forth.
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Instead there is a "New Thought" view of sin, which knows nothing of a representative man (Adam) by whose sin EVERYONE has sinned (hence the need for being saved).

Again wrong. I believe in Adam very much so and his name is an acronym for the four master stars which man was created from as per the book of Enoch. Kabbalists also know this. Sin is about being imperfect in GOD's view only. God is a perfectionist and as a result regretted he made man as per Genesis 6:6. As man was created in gods image then if ADAM is flawed so is GOD. Man would not have required testing in the garden of Eden if God beleived him to be flawless, or perfect. Testing soemthing means there is a strong possibility of failure, or a fault being prevelant. To me; it's Clear as day.[/B]
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Nor does the "New Thought" concept teach that there is any original sin. It considers that man's true essence is divine and perfect. It finds nothing in the nature of sin but speaks of "troublesome desires" which are natural human impulses that direct people from consciousness to their identity with God, and are therefore troublesome but hardly sinful.

Christianity all comes down to making others feel guilty and remorseful. "OH I am a poor humble sinner who needs forgivness from my heavenly father" - is the type of self talk one feeds. Christianity is a guilt ridden belief system with many psychologically abusive problems. It tears down ones demeanor especially in women and lowers self esteem, inculcates sadomasochist beleifs in a person. "Turn the other cheek" for an example is saying to oneself "let the other person walk all over you and don't fight back". Christ was persecuted and so are his true disciples.
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There is no need for salvation since the world depends upon the "inner god" or mankind. When enough people "harmonize" their "positive energy" and concentrate on peace, the world will be cleansed of negativity.

Yes - well I need some convincing of this idea too.
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New Age ideals will be realized together with spiritual enlightenment. Humanity is intrinsically divine and perfect, we are currently ignorant of that!!!

Totally true.
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New agers that are more deeply into their belief do not hold the traditional view of Lucifer as the devil or Satan; it is removed from New Age beliefs. Alice Bailey, a leading writer in the New Age Movement describes him as a mighty being of light (Lucifer means "light" or "angel of light") and the "Ruler of Humanity." Benjamin Creme, a leading lecturer of the New Age, says, "Lucifer came from the planet Venus 18.5 million years ago; he's the director of our planetary evolution, he is the sacrificial lamb, and the prodigal son. Lucifer made an incredible sacrifice, a supreme sacrifice for our planet." (Shouldn’t this kind of thought show a free thinker some form of warning sign).

NO!!! Lucifer was the head watcher angel. There is nothing here I see that contridicts the bible as such, but rather expands on it.
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New Agers believe in the Eastern concept of reincarnation; through a process of rebirths, man eventually reaches spiritual perfection.

The bible is full of reincarnation cases. The rich man and lazurus, The ressurection into heaven Or on earth, the fact Jesus had a pre human existance as the logos in his last life and as a man in the earthly ligfe and as a king of the kingdom in this current life. The promise Jesus gave the evil doer on the cross, about being in paradise with him ( next life ) in his kingdom. Jesus talking to the spirits in prison as a ghost after his death, in I Peter 3: 18-20. That is reincarnation to a tee. There are various versions of the same theme.
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They often place animal rights above human rights, because many believe animals are reincarnated souls.

A Buddhist idea. I do love the dolphins and the whales - To eat. Meat was allowed to be eaten after the flood. Its a part of our DNA requirments. I have not researched this fully but I don't beleive protein is all we need from meat, as people who go off it, get withdrawals soon after.
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They teach the Hindu principle of "karma," a person reaps in the next life what they sow in this one.

Yep.
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Reincarnation leads to believing in the power of "spirit guides" or "channels" to allow spirits from another dimension to speak through their bodies.

Don't you think christians channel the holy spirit ?? That makes them mediums for it.
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This allows for three errors 1: There is no death ( jesus did not die as he was alive taliking to spirits in prison 1st Peter 3:19); 2: man is god. ( yes when you know what god means "GOOD") 3: knowledge of self is salvation and power.( most assuredly as God helps those who help themselves we all have a brain - so use it. )

Yes well anything is all possible, and depends on how you look at it.
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New Agers [ SOME ] misrepresent church history and the doctrines of Christianity and twist Christian scripture to support the idea that original Christianity taught reincarnation and; they argue that the early church suppressed the doctrine and censored its teaching.

Do more research, outside Christian books. - You are incorrect.
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The New Age Movement is a revival of ancient, divergent, religious traditions and practices.

Many are.
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It is squarely centred in Satan’s lie (Genesis 3:1-5), and echoes through the movement's historical expressions.

Not true !!! - as far as being linked into satans lie. Christians are brainwashed!!! into believing everything they disgree with is from satan. Give the devil a break will you. Where do you think Christainity had its roots ? In Paganism of course.
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Satan questions God's word, His authority and benevolent rule (Gen 3:1), he disputes that death results from disobedience (Gen 3:4), and claims that through the acquisition of secret or Gnostic wisdom mankind will be enlightened and can be "like God" (Gen 3:5).

Yes and so one should question God's word - as its full of gapping cracks and holes. Questioning shows one, your a thinker and able to reason. That's why God gave us all a brain to 'question things' as it is called "the ability to Reason". Wouldn't you question PIPS about how your money is spent and invested, if you had issues with it?
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Occult practices and beliefs revived by new agers have been part of early pagan cultures. Witchcraft/sorcery, spiritism, divination, (clairvoyance; seeing the future), necromancy (consulting the dead), and astrology, are practices that are clearly and strongly forbidden by Scripture (Deuteronomy 18: 9-17; Isaiah 47: 9-15).

Correct; as these are closer to the truth than Christianity. Christianity is deeply rooted in sun worship and paganism.
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These and other occult practices were spread through the ancient magic (magick) and mystery religions of the Chaldeans, Egyptians, and the Assyrian-Babylonian culture. Noting the scope of its continuing presence, the Bible informs Christians of Babylon's “destiny” implications.

Thats Gods' word only - there are two sides to every story.
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Satan's lie (Genesis 3) is developed in Babylon (Isaiah 47) and continues to its ultimate state of development, revealed as Satan's one-world system at the end of the age (Revelation 17-18).

What about God's "One World Mesianic Government" as per Daniel 2:44.
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Christians can demonstrate that the Bible does NOT teach reincarnation.

And I can demonstrate it can. Christians in the first century did believe in reincarnation. More background research.
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When Jesus calls John the Baptist "Elijah," He is speaking metaphorically. Luke 1:17 demonstrates that John was filling the office of Elijah, and executing the prophecy of Malachi 4:5-6. Elijah was seen with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-3.

So what!
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The meaning of the resurrection is the opposite of reincarnation (Hebrews 9:27; 1 Cor. 15:12-28).

Not entirely true. Unless your linking the Buddhist Idea of reincarnation with ressurection.

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If God is an impersonal force, then love and forgiveness are not possible.

Not true !!! Your idea seems to be linking God as having a Moral Character. If you look at it that way then we get into a whole other subject, that of Dualism.

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They are personal attributes as opposed to impersonal law of karma.

You don't seem to understand karma. Karma is a law - a result of a cause. If it is negative it is called Karma if it is positive it is called Dharma. Karma is not "payback" from some personal god. Payback is 'Retribution'.
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Intercessory prayer is absolutely necessary.

Not true. Only for a christian it may be. Not for a non-Christian like myself. If I have a problem, I either handle it myself, or avoid the scenario. Where both situations are not possible - then I give up and accept it as my destiny.
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The battle for souls is won through God's grace, intervening and drawing them to Himself.

Why do you want to battle ??? That is not Love, that is War. Soldiers of Christ mentality. The battle is supposedly against the wicked spirit forces in the dark places. What is it with a soul that God needs it so bad. That tells me he has an agenda.
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Christianity takes sin and guilt seriously, the new age does not, its like missing the bull’s eye. There is no other satisfaction for self than the need to respond to the Cross of Christ in repentance and faith. By living the Christian life through the Spirit of Jesus we have a superior model that the new age cannot offer. Real empowerment to live comes only through Jesus. We must also apply the wisdom of Scripture to today’s issues.

Every one is entitled to their opinion.
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If you have got this far, thank you for reading.

Ditto !!! Kimlyn

Wow!

Give it a rest everyone- wait for the good news from Bryan.

I thought I was going to have the crown for the longest post, I pass it graciously on.

I don’t doubt and can see that you have done a lot of research, and I can understand how you have come to your conclusion. I believe that in one or two places there a have been some massive jumps in logic.

I detect a change in tone with phrases likeAnd for the purpose of this thread and those who think that we may not be as civil as we were, the most I can do is to agree to differ.

“take it or leave it.” And when I see unsubstantiated words like “Crap!!!” and “Rubbish!!!” I switch off. These words unintentionally change what was the courteous character of the dialog, but becomes fuel for the "shut up" brigade. I don’t have a problem with length. I do believe for those following this discussion of whom there seem to be many, it is in danger of being locked or deleted by the moderators which would be sad, because we have both put allot of work into it.

I haven’t responded to the other thread because I can’t respond to it in the intent required by the original poster. See what tense the author of Daniel is in chapters 1 to 6 and you will see that that it is in the 3rd person. The title magician was not of Daniels making. And if you read chapters 1 to three you can see how that title was bestowed on him.

Take care and best wishes

Yes. The knowledge contained in this thread is great, and worth keeping as a basic research thesis.

However, "knowledge puffs up, love builds up".

No matter how much we learn, if we do not have love, then we are as "sounding brass and tinkling cymbal".

I used to debate vigorously with Christians, and more often than not, I would win the debate hands down, because I did more research and uderstood (partially) both sides of the arguments.

But I lost, whenever I backed my mother into a corner with my verbosity. At five-foot-nothing, she would come out of the corner with..."You may have an argument, but I have an experience. It was Jesus that healed me of my incurable disease. It was Jesus that released me from the bondage of sin a guilt. It is Jesus that sustains my peace and joy day by day, and until you find Him, you will never find rest for your soul."

He that has an experience is never at the mecry of one who just has an argument.

interesting.

What a waste of bandwidth............

To Interesting;

My comments are HIGHLIGHTED.

Originally Posted by interesting

Yes. The knowledge contained in this thread is great, and worth keeping as a basic research thesis.

Thankyou for the complement.

However, "knowledge puffs up, love builds up".
[No matter how much we learn, if we do not have love, then we are as "sounding brass and tinkling cymbal".

I disagree with this point of view but see where your comming from.

I used to debate vigorously with Christians, and more often than not, I would win the debate hands down, because I did more research and uderstood (partially) both sides of the arguments.

But I lost, whenever I backed my mother into a corner with my verbosity. At five-foot-nothing, she would come out of the corner with..."You may have an argument, but I have an experience. It was Jesus that healed me of my incurable disease. It was Jesus that released me from the bondage of sin a guilt. It is Jesus that sustains my peace and joy day by day, and until you find Him, you will never find rest for your soul."

When we are really conviced and convicted to the soul - as I am and your self your mother and many others - its hard to not get emotional about what we are saying. Sometimes we say things in a way that offends the others beliefs by our tone even when we are correct in our facts. The problem with Christians is they think they are the only ones who have inner experiences. Until they know what is going on in the spirit world they will NEVER understand the bigger picture. And that is another subject.

He that has an experience is never at the mecry of one who just has an argument.

A wise saying - I like to "quote" smart allec employers who want bits of paper over raw experience for as job.interesting.

In final response to your above comments - I agree in principle with what your saying. I did say in my last post that "It would be a long one and I was going to load the ammo". I mean what I say. I was going to gracefully recced in responding altogether but my partner felt I should stand up and defend myself. As ammo is meant to "blow things" away it denotes an aggressive tack of reasoning. My understanding is Christians have to wear the complete suit of armour as they are soldiers in a spiritual war against the wicked spirit forces. Power has nothing to do with love, but raw facts. Christ claims to "rule with a rod of Iron" so I fight fire with fire; "You reap what you sow"; "Do unto others as they do to you" and so forth.

As Christianity is all about conversion which is a form of mind control - I specialize in studing this subject. Prayer is a weapon of Christians to fight the enemy with God's power - a form of spell casting with the force of the deity AMEN. So where is their Love in all of this. They often prevoke and cry "apostasy" when they loose - or can't get through to you. Unfortunately for me - I feel very much mind controlled and manipulated by christians who are trying to convert. I do though, love a debate. I do get very incensed at stupid reasoning on things that Christians should know better on, since they are the ones who claim to have THE TRUTH. And what is truth ?

Some feel this is a waste of Bandwidth - that is their opinion. Maybe I am a waste of life to some, but If I have helped someone in seeing another perspective on things, then the post has been worth the electricity to put it on the web.

I make no claim to anything other than I know what I am talking about and consider myself and authority on the subject. I do not intentionally put myself on any level of being puffed up. I was challenged and I have defended "my faith" nothing more nothing less.

Regards to all
Kimlyn.

To Denim and other Readers;

Before I say anything else - I want to sincerly apologise for any offense or demeaning comments I may have said in my "Grand Post". The terms I used were not meant in any personal way - even though it may read like that. Unfortunately I don't have as much holy spirit as you and the works of my flesh are more manifest in my nature than yours. I mean that quite literally.
But also I feel a right to defend my beliefs as does every one else. I do agree some words could have been more tastefully described - rather than the sour note I expressed. As you know debate is hard to have without negative emotion creeping in. If you can read the material without the emotional content - which might be hard for some - it will cover the point of discussion.

Though I am more than prepared to continue the "discussion" - if it proves to be unfair to other readers, and even yourself, to drag it out and get into a spin over things; it might be wiser to drop it for now; or speak via personal email. I am easy.

I trust this clears up any misunderstanding and possible upset. Again I apologize as I was a bit harse in some of my comments.

Sincerly yours
Kimlyn.

Ps: The Daniel subject is another day; But I will reread the chapters you stated.

Originally Posted by denim

I thought I was going to have the crown for the longest post, I pass it graciously on.

I don’t doubt and can see that you have done a lot of research, and I can understand how you have come to your conclusion. I believe that in one or two places there a have been some massive jumps in logic.

I detect a change in tone with phrases likeAnd for the purpose of this thread and those who think that we may not be as civil as we were, the most I can do is to agree to differ.

“take it or leave it.” And when I see unsubstantiated words like “Crap!!!” and “Rubbish!!!” I switch off. These words unintentionally change what was the courteous character of the dialog, but becomes fuel for the "shut up" brigade. I don’t have a problem with length. I do believe for those following this discussion of whom there seem to be many, it is in danger of being locked or deleted by the moderators which would be sad, because we have both put allot of work into it.

I haven’t responded to the other thread because I can’t respond to it in the intent required by the original poster. See what tense the author of Daniel is in chapters 1 to 6 and you will see that that it is in the 3rd person. The title magician was not of Daniels making. And if you read chapters 1 to three you can see how that title was bestowed on him.

Take care and best wishes