Thread: be careful

skylark,

The truth in a nutshell is we are all born of original sin because of Adam. The myth of free-will is just that: a myth. God is holy. God hates sin, if God loves sinners and hates sin, then what is there in sinners but sin?

If God loved everybody then nobody would be condemned to hell and we would all go to heaven. That is simply not true. Contrary to the prevailing belief, Yashua(the messiah) did not come to die for everyones sins, but only those of the elect whom the father (yahweh) had foreordained before the foundation of the earth.

"Hath not the potter power over the lump of the same clay to make a vehicle fitted unto mercy as well as a vehicle fitted unto wrath."

Therefore Yahweh has created some people to passover in the judgement as reprobate and they will suffer his wrath in the final judgement. On the other hand the elect will be shown mercy as they have been convicted by the holy spirit to receive the blessing of salvation.

Bottom line. Yahweh is holy and sovereign. Omnicient and Omnipotent.

We are all guilty of sin and deserve separation from Yahweh. It was foreordained by Yahweh that some will receive mercy while others will suffer his wrath.

For further clarification I suggest you read the book I mentioned to you previously.

regards.

Originally Posted by solitaire

God loves everyone, sinner or saint to come home to him and live with him in paradise like the story of the prodigal son.
================================================

That is an erroneous statement.

Try reading "The bondage of the will", by Martin Luther.

The statement is only about our temporal life journey on earth. Good or bad shall be judged by God in accordance to the law of 'The Ten Commandments.'
The righteous shall see heaven while repented sinner shall have his /her temporal punishment in purgatory and those against God shall perish into hell of eternal flame.

Originally Posted by solitaire

skylark,

The truth in a nutshell is we are all born of original sin because of Adam. The myth of free-will is just that: a myth. God is holy. God hates sin, if God loves sinners and hates sin, then what is there in sinners but sin?

If God loved everybody then nobody would be condemned to hell and we would all go to heaven. That is simply not true. Contrary to the prevailing belief, Yashua(the messiah) did not come to die for everyones sins, but only those of the elect whom the father (yahweh) had foreordained before the foundation of the earth.

"Hath not the potter power over the lump of the same clay to make a vehicle fitted unto mercy as well as a vehicle fitted unto wrath."

Therefore Yahweh has created some people to passover in the judgement as reprobate and they will suffer his wrath in the final judgement. On the other hand the elect will be shown mercy as they have been convicted by the holy spirit to receive the blessing of salvation.

Bottom line. Yahweh is holy and sovereign. Omnicient and Omnipotent.

We are all guilty of sin and deserve separation from Yahweh. It was foreordained by Yahweh that some will receive mercy while others will suffer his wrath.

For further clarification I suggest you read the book I mentioned to you previously.

regards.

God does indeed love everyone, so much so that in order to rescue us from the penalty of sin He became Himself the very sacrafice that would fulfill the requirement of the law which states that the soul that sins must die. He being sinless and pure (the Lamb) gave his pure life to satisfy the requirement of the law He created because He is a just God. This is the part most people fail to realize... God is love surely, but God is also justice. God knows that all people are born into a sinful world because of the free will choice of Adam to disobey God. When Adam did this (ate from the tree of the knowledg of good and evil) mankind fell from grace and from that point on every person born to the now "unclean" Adam & Eve inherit their sin nature. Since mankind is incapable of being rightous in his own strength all mankind was then doomed to be forever seperated from God.

God is completely and totally pure and holy and sin even in its slightest form can not exist in Gods presence and since man is born in sin, he cannot exist in Gods presence. He would be burned up in the brightness of Gods glory and majesty. Like I said earlier, God not wanting that any should perish became a man himself and took the sentance of death himself so that none of us would have to. You may ask "why didn't He just change the law?" or "why can't he just let it slide?" Its because He is righteous and just. When He says something He means it. When He makes a law it is binding even by Him. That is perfect righteousness and perfect justice. You must understand that God is PERFECT and PURE in all His ways and atributes.

Now all that being said God now offers to everyone, EVERYONE the oppertunity to come back into the loving relationship with Him that He intended for all of us to have. He offers this freely to EVERYONE. You can't earn this wonderful gift. You can't bargain for it or make a deal for it. God is so gracious that He made it simple so anyone can have it. All you have to do is believ that Jesus (Gods name as a man) really did do as he says He did, that He died by crucification, so that you wouldn't have to, for your sinful life. And after going to hell Himself, God then raised Jesus from the dead fully alive and forever alive with God.

Now once you realize your sinful condition you can simply, with a sincere heart, ask Jesus to forgive you and repent of your sinful ways ( turn from them in your heart) Accept the free gift, salvation from hell and seperation from God, that Jesus bought for you with His own blood. and finally you must make Jesus Lord over your life. That means you trust Him to know whats best for you, you believe and abide by what He says.

Contrary to common christian belief God is not interested in people following a bunch of rules and regulations in an attempt to 'earn" Gods approval. God is interested in having as many people as possible comming back to a lovesick God and returning that love back to Him. It is only when we become lovesick for God that we will be empowered to live righteously. Attempting to live by rules and regulations apart from a lovesick heart will always end in frustration and bitterness... which incedentaly explains the sad condition of a majority of professing "christians".

This is such a vast subject and is very difficult to write or expound adequately in such an abreviated format. I do enjoy very much reading posts on this topic.

Take care friends

"It is only when we become lovesick for God that we will be empowered to live righteously".

What an interesting expression. I recently heard someone state, allow God, through Jesus Christ, by the ever present power of His Holy Spirit to develop in you (us)- a PASSIONATE FIRE! for Him (Jesus) in all your ways.

A Love Sick, Passionate Fire, burning for the glory of the King of the Ages!!

Might give us an understanding of why King David danced as he did around and before the Arc of the Covenant (the presense of God)!!

thank you very much for the enlightened discussion on religion, but wouldn't it be great if we opened up a discussion about greed,(which is really the cause of our demise, wether we want to admit it or not)where people of all religion relates to the cause and consequences.

solitaire,

All I know about Martin Luther from my readings many years ago is that he was one of the great reformers during the Reformation History of Christian religion. The bible which was in the Latin language at that time was only in the hands of the elite few of society. But the credit belongs to him for translating the Latin bible into the Germanic language which made it possible for the availability of the book to more people to have their own bible for German was more of the common language than Latin at that time.

Your question is:

"If God loved everybody then nobody would be condemned to hell and we would all go to heaven". I believe that this is not what my statement said.
and if you could go back and read the story of the prodigal son in the New Testament, it talks about the son going back to the father and beg for his
forgiveness to accept him back and the forgiving father filled with joy to see his son back again. Jesus Christ told this story to illustrate the love and mercy of our Heavenly Father for a sinner who will seek His forgiveness.


My anwers to your question will not come from what men say or said but
from the Holy Words of God.

1. Does God love everyone? From the holy book:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life".
John 3:16 The word of God loves the "world" ( and that includes everyone).
No matter who you are, God truly loves you, including me and others. And
if you really ponder about this, you will be less critical about someone
and be more more appreciative of others. We will remember that we we're
all created by the same divine Creator, and God knows what He is doing.

2. Does God love the sinner?

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,
(by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:) Ephesians 2:4-8 God loves the
vilest sinner and yet He does not condone their sins and wicked lifestyles.
God is holy and His holiness demands justice. A sinner who will not repent
and accept God's gift of atonement ( forgiveness) thru Jesus Christ will pay their sins in hell-fire for eternity.

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Matthew 12:36

"So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God."
Romans 14:12

Skylark,

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life".
John 3:16 The word of God loves the "world" ( and that includes everyone).


Did you stop to think that at the time this was written there were less than 100 million people in the world. Today there are 6 billion plus.

Please read Psalms 37 v. 37-40.

Also, we do not have freewill as Ive stated. Because we are bounded by sin we cannot choose to come to Yahweh for forgiveness on our own accord. It is written that the human heart is deceitful of all things and desparetly wicked. Yashua made this and other points in the messianic writings. From birth the only freewill we do have is to do that which is sinful.

More accurately we have free agency. I can choose to go to one restaurant versus another.

Yahweh is not willing that any of his (elect) should perish but that all (his elect) should come to repentance.

Those whom he has decreed as reprobate will suffer his wrath in the final judgement. God (Yahweh) does this to show his omnipotence. HE is a God of love but also a God of vengeance and justice.

It is this concept that I believe has led many to repent while others have ignored these warnings in disbelief.

We do not know who the elect or the reprobate are. Only Yahweh himself knows.

Solitaire, with all do respect, your views as you've stated them here are not supported by the scriptures. I must tell you that I consider "The new Testament" equally inspired by God and equally Holy as the "Old Testament". Also, there is a critical reason why they are referred to as "old" and "new".

Keeping in mind that anyone can take individual scriptures out of context to support just about any point of view, the religeous world has been doing it for centuries....

Specifically your assertion that only "the elect" are offered salvation is clearly contradicted by scripture.

Your point about the population of the earth I did not understand, but as it relates to this topic is actually irrelevent.

You did make a very interesting point though regarding a persons inability to come to the Lord or seek Him through his own (human) abilities and devices. The scriptures do teach that God does continually pursue everyone by His Holy Spirit wooing and pleading with each mans heart to recognize his hopeless condition and repent (turn from) of his unrighteousness (faithlessness, sin). There is a point, however, when after a person continually and persistently refuses the graciousness of God and instead chooses to remain in his unrighteous state, that God will stop pursuing him and finally give that person what he wants in his heart and that would be for God to leave him alone. Noone knows where that "point of no return" is except God Himself. At that point a man is lost forever. Oh my.... what a tragic and heart wrenching consequence.

I hope my participation and points in this thread don't cause any hostility as this topic often does. Its just one of my favorite things to talk about.

peace
-kevo

Originally Posted by solitaire

Skylark,

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life".
John 3:16 The word of God loves the "world" ( and that includes everyone).


Did you stop to think that at the time this was written there were less than 100 million people in the world. Today there are 6 billion plus.

Please read Psalms 37 v. 37-40.

Also, we do not have freewill as Ive stated. Because we are bounded by sin we cannot choose to come to Yahweh for forgiveness on our own accord. It is written that the human heart is deceitful of all things and desparetly wicked. Yashua made this and other points in the messianic writings. From birth the only freewill we do have is to do that which is sinful.

More accurately we have free agency. I can choose to go to one restaurant versus another.

Yahweh is not willing that any of his (elect) should perish but that all (his elect) should come to repentance.

Those whom he has decreed as reprobate will suffer his wrath in the final judgement. God (Yahweh) does this to show his omnipotence. HE is a God of love but also a God of vengeance and justice.

It is this concept that I believe has led many to repent while others have ignored these warnings in disbelief.

We do not know who the elect or the reprobate are. Only Yahweh himself knows.

Alright Kevo, your turn.

We can hopefully agree that Yahweh is eternal. He is the alpha and the omega. HE has no beginning and no end.

Unlike mankind, Yahweh is not bounded by time. We are bounded by sin and by time which is why we dont live forever.

Yahweh clearly stands outside of time and can see exactly what kind of life each one of us will live before we are even born. Nothing happens by accident. Everything that happens in life and that has ever happened was predestined by Yahweh. Including both world wars to use an example.

The reformation scholars took into account the doctrine of predestination in light of the points I have made above in other posts. If this doctrine did not exist, then we would all be here by chance and not by design.

If God is holy and eternal, then he is the supreme potter who has made each and everyone of us either to be the objects of his mercy or the objects of his wrath as HE has predestined.

I find it sad that most denominations fail to realize this. I have met so called christians that take the bible litteraly in most instances.

When Yashua said "If your right hand causes you to sin then cut it off". Do you think he actually meant to take a knife or saw and sever your hand????

He spoke in parables to hide his message from those who were "blinded" by sin and ignorance like the pharisees.

When Yashua said "If your right hand causes you to sin then cut it off". Do you think he actually meant to take a knife or saw and sever your hand????

He spoke in parables to hide his message from those who were "blinded" by sin and ignorance like the pharisees.[/QUOTE]



It is better to lose partially the Sight (IF) to SEE Evil and Dumb (IF) to SPEAK Evil and Handicap (IF) to DO Evil than to have whole body go into hell. See Matthew Chp.5 (Ver.28, 29, 30)