Quote:
Originally Posted by shauncr
I am sure you were there when he was born so you know something that whole world do not know..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shauncr
I am sure you were there when he was born so you know something that whole world do not know..
Oooh, how condescendingly arrogant of you! Ha haQuote:
Originally Posted by yhlc
and also to your followup to this post. Also, very carefully selected use of pronouns. Well done. lol
Truth is, I don't particularly want to go to Bali or Pakistan or anywhere else for a month to see how the other half live, that sure don't qualify me for your veiled barrage of personal abuse and innuendo. Please say what's really on your mind. LOL
Not only don't I want to , I shouldn't have to, which is in fact what your mindset demands of me to have the privilege of you being here. Dream on.
If in your humble opinion I'm a hatred filled scared racist for wishing to retain MY way of life without having to cowtail to the whining whims of people who don't like the way the Australian culture is and the way we live, then so be it. There is an avenue of redress for those people...it's called, shut the door on the way out.
This whole thread is a glowing example of the futility of multiculturalism and of the puffed-up expectations and demands of those who take advantage of it.
You've got no idea where I come from pal, so aside from being patronisingly arrogant, now you're a clairvoynant.
It's obvious you have your views on this issue and I have mine, which is what the Australian culture allows.
As you are no doubt aware, this is a freedom not afforded in many parts of the world, this IS a freedom worth protecting and standing up for without being berated as a racist or a hatred filled red-neck for not jumping on the 'politically correct bandwagon'.
Please save your personal attacks for some other forum.
I don't believe that level of sarcasm was needed...In the story of Jesus' birth it is told that the shepards were in the fields with their sheep. The shepards and sheep did not stay in the fields in wintertime. Even in that part of the world, December would be winter and the rainy season.Quote:
Originally Posted by newlife
What shauncr said about the catholic church hyjacking a pagan holiday is true (in this case it took the place of the pagan celebration of Yule or Winter-Solstice). They did it with Easter/Ostara-Spring-Equinox and Halloween/Samhain-All-Hallows-Eve, (day after was declared "All Saints Day" by the Catholic Church) as well. It made the conversion to Christianity easier for the pagans if there was a "Christian" celebration coinciding with age old pagan celebrations. It has just been so many decades and centuries since it was done, no one remembers (except maybe in Europe where the actual transition took place). By the time North America started to be colonized, the transition was complete so it's not as well known in the U.S.
However, none of this has to do with the original direction of this thread...
You were okay until the last paragraph...You're setting a trap and presiding over your own court. "Anyone who is against multiculturalism" is a very vague claim. Basically you're saying that if anyone professes to be "against" then they have to undergo "sensitivity training". It can also be taken the anyone "deemed" against is subject to the same rule. However, depending upon WHO is doing the determination of "against", everyone could have to undergo sensitivity training on multiculturalism.Quote:
Originally Posted by yhlc
Most people are very tolerant of other persons and their cultures, especially if they see that the person of another culture is sincerely trying to "fit in" in their new environment/country. Dictating multiculturalism is simply trying to water down the host country's peoples sense of their own nationality/patriotism. By watering down what it is to be any particular nationality, you are setting that nation up for social destruction.
i was just expressing a point of view. slight exaggeration. hopefully u did get my point that no one has the right to force others to follow a certain culture and abandon their own heirtage. i do think everyone should have some sensitivity training but that would be impractical and mostlikely impossible. fact is, you cant stop some people from hating others.
it's just dissapointing that there are people who choose to point fingers rather than look in the mirror. really sad.
tony,i think u already know what i think of you. point is, it is not relevant and shouldnt be relevant. i could not care less what u think of me. i choose to be diplomatic but i guess u can read between the lines.
u are right that we disagree so let's agree to that. at teh end of the day we have been given the right - not ONLY by australia- but by our creator to have a different point of view.
one day u will hopefully realise that just bcos people are different, it does not mean that they are your enemy. ur paranoia of other cultures is disturbing at best. u need to learn to be empathetic. the first two letters changes the word and may change ur life.
Why do you continue to want to make this personal.Quote:
Originally Posted by yhlc
Why don't you address some of the issues I raise in my posts instead of reducing your argument to sarcastic chryptology and insult.
Why don't you answer why our lifestyle has to change, why our culture and tradition have to removed to appease the sensibilities of some sections of the immigrant community in our country? I can only conclude that you are agreeable to the political correctness that demands those changes. I'll tell you right now that while ever my ass points to the ground it is NOT acceptable to the vast majority of Australians. You call that paranoia, lack of sensitivity, hatred and racism.....you could not be further from the truth. I call it, I'm proud to be an Australian, I call it, I love my country and would fight to the death to keep her. I call it patriotism.
None of my posts attacked you personally and if you actually read and understood my posts you would surely read in them my problem is not with you nor with immigation or immigrants per say...I married an immigrant. My closest friend is an immigrant. Not that I need to justify my position to you.
My problem is with an enforced system of political correctness that demands our culture, our traditions, our way of life MUST change to accomodate certain sections of the immigrant community. Look around, all over the world this situation has resulted in nothing but violent and destructive behaviour in the streets of the adopted countries of people who chose to go there presumably for a better life. Do you think by destroying the place you live is an intelligent way to gain any positive reaction from the general population?
Sadly I'm not a mind reader and consequently don't know what you think of me and quite frankly I don't really give a rats. If you need to say something please don't be shy. LOL
Perhaps you should PM if you wish to ignore the issues in my posts and continue to serve up personal berating as I assure you if you continue, my next response will not be appropriate for this forum.
Tony56, I've been following your discourse with Yhic and can't help but chuckle. I have a brother that no matter how many different ways I try to explain something he only hears what he wants to... and most of it comes from himself.
I hope your views are representative of the majority of your country. As an American I often wonder if other like countries are experiencing the same kind of social chaos as we are. It does my heart good to hear sensible arguments from freedom loving people who have an understanding of what it takes to keep a country healthy. Sadly politicians, especially liberals, are so insecure and want to be liked so much that they enable bad behavior believing it will buy them respectability, when in fact the opposite is true.
And for your information about 80% of Americans agree with your view of immigration. I'm sure you'll that the immigrant is not the problem. Its the policy makers in all levels of government.
Hey kevo,Quote:
Originally Posted by kevo
I'll tell you how bad this is getting over here atm. You may have heard of an Australian citizen who has been in a Singapore jail for the last three years on heroin trafficing charges. He was caught with an estimated 26,000 hits of heroin. But according to him, he was doing it to get his brother out of debt (oh shit, well that makes it ok then, sorry my mistake)....by selling it to our kids no doubt. The bottom line is the guy's a HEROIN DEALER right. He is to be hanged this Friday in Singapore.
Now for all who oppose the death penalty....I'm in total agreement with your opposition.....BUT, Singapore law determined his guilt and punishment. Last time I looked they were a sovereign nation and as such have every right to do as their legal system permits in their own country.
There has been an absolute uproar in the press, all the politically correct, the lawyers the lefties, the greenies..etc etc screaming how our Prime Minister is a dog for not doing enough to save this HEROIN DEALER from the gallows. I might add there have been six separate requests by Australian Government officials including the Prime Minister to the Singapore Govt for clemency and for them to jail him for life rather than hang him.
No, not good enough say his lawyers and all the rest of the PC wagon riders, our Govt should go over there and demand his stay of execution and tell Singapore Govt they are barbarians and they should not hang this HEROIN DEALER and bla friggin bla bla. Are we still on planet earth here or what?
Some numbskull has even suggested we observe one minute silence in the community on Friday at the time of the hanging. Yes, now there's an idea, lets signify the hanging of a HEROIN DEALER the same as we do with your Independence Day, the English VE Day or our Anzac Day...are they for real. Lets erect a statue, sing songs......did I mention this prick is a HEROIN DEALER that would have sold 26,000 hits of heroin to our kids.
Now slap me in the face with a fish.....are we talking about a national hero, a soldier fallen in battle....NO, we're talking about a friggin HEROIN DEALER here. HELLO!!! H E L L O!!!
I might add this HEROIN DEALER is of Asian descent, which is a real godsend for the PC butt smoochers. You can just imagine how they are playing that one.
Maybe we should take up a partition to the Singapore Govt to have this guy released into house custody (accompanied by his 26,000 hits of smak) of the Australian lawyer (and his kids) who wants him out so badly.
It's sickening to see such intense support for this HEROIN DEALER by otherwise intelligent people. Oh, did I mention this guy is a HEROIN DEALER.
Yes Kevo, as you can see, it's all fine and dandy downunder, but nobody I know is liking it.
Very well PUT, They sould'nt wear out there welcome
tony,
when did i say that YOUR lifestyle has to change for the sake of other'?. if u read all my posts, the conclusion is that no one shoudl change for others. there is a big difference between a good host and a slave to other's culture.
i even criticised the victorian council who were considering to ban christmas carols at school. i even stated my dismay on hearing target banning christmas at work or the "piggy bank" termnilogy that may offend muslims who frankly speaking dont even care. if u still think i am politcally correct then you haven't read my posts.
and lastly, i even stated that if anyone has their culture or religion surpressed, the result would be civil war. i wasnt' referring JUST to non-caucasions. i was referring to anyone and everyone who has to change THEIR life to accomodate others. result is the same.
i think we may be arguing about the same thing but just for the sake of it, please demonstrate WHERE and WHEN i have suggested that aussies or anybody should changeTHEIR own lifestlye and ways for others (regardless of migrants, minorities or majorities.)
respecting and appreciating cultural differences DOES NOT under any circumstance forces you to ACCEPT them as YOUR way of life. its called understandting and being empathetic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyd56
if i agree with u here, does that make u politcally correct? i agree on capital punishment carried out publicly. ti would save tax payers alot of money and make everybody think a hundred times before they consider drugs, rape and murder.
but then again, this my "politically correct" view isn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyd56
yhlc wrote:
"if i agree with u here, does that make u politcally correct? i agree on capital punishment carried out publicly. ti would save tax payers alot of money and make everybody think a hundred times before they consider drugs, rape and murder.
but then again, this my "politically correct" view isn't it?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, yes I think it does...scary huh, the anti-capital punishment view is the politically correct view. ;-))
I just seem to agree with the politically correct view or maybe the politically correct view just agrees with my personal view for once.....I find myself thinking on the pros and cons of each view as I type this response, I must admit it troubles me to think of the case in point again and again, I feel I could easily be swayed off my position due to my abhorance of the crime. It really is a hard thing to ponder upon, to justify the taking of a life but when I think of who the intended recipients of this guys heroin may have been and having had friends over the years killed by heroin, just maybe I would change my vote by Friday.
For me I guess it boils down to my own personal abhorance of the crimes committed. Rape, child molestation and suicide bombings are several I'd like to think I'd have no problem at all in pulling the lever on the perpetrator.
i guess in teh case of suicide bombing, the lever is pulled just before the victims and the rest of the world find out.
i think people who have been affected directly (victims) or indirectly (those who are close to victims) will be able to understand the voice for pro-capital punishment.
i've seen a friend's self-worth, confidence and respect destroyed bcos her "Friend" drugged and raped her twice over 2 months. and then he taunted her via sms bcos he knew that if she told her family, it would bring "dishonor" to their name.
she won't even tell me or my wife who the person is bcos she knows i would visit him with my friend who is a former detective senior sergeant for the CIB and have a "word" with him. he would be wishing for capital punishment after our visit.
i don't even know where to start with paedophiles. death is what they would be begging for as mercy after they feel the pain of salt continuously being rubbed into their wound after they are skinned alive. cant beleive some of these SOBs are actually people from elevated and highly trusting/respectful positions.
Agree with you 100% re paedophiles. They not only weasle their way into positions of trust and authority in the community but also into positions of power and respect bringing disrepute to what should be honoured positions in the community. Castration sounds good to me ;-) (for them that is!!)Quote:
Originally Posted by yhlc
It's infuriating that these kind of offenders are generally treated so leniently when their actions scar their victims for life.
You are so right in saying people close to these offences are more inclined to be pro-capital punishment and their situation is exacerbated by the way the authorities shelter offenders upon their release back into the community.
Hey that skinning alive thing sounds interesting.....shit, remind me not to piss you off ok. ;-)
I can appreciate how families want 5 minutes alone with these people but I can also appreciate why God reserves the right of revenge and I know where these offenders are going if unrepentent is gonna be a whole lot worse than anything we can dream up.
On another note, it's good to be talking with you in a non-adversarial manner. ;-)
TonyD
I've never figured out why the American Indians are called native-americans.Quote:
Originally Posted by boink
They also immigrated to this land, before it was America, via a land bridge that supposedly used to exist between northern Asia and Alaska or via boat from Asia.
My family has been in America since before the American Revolution. My family helped in the founding of the United States of America. An American is a citizen of the United States of America. Yet, I am not considered a native of my own country. I am merely an American.
tony,
i was referring to only those who take actions against society and humanity so u're safe....
i don't think god needs to avenge. in my view, it's like removing a cancer. cancer will destroy u if you don't remove it. it's a fact. there is no need for "war" against cancer. u just get the sucker out and move on with your life before it removes your life and makes those who are close to you miserable.
again, in my view, god doesn't have any enemies. even satan needs god's permission in order to have the ability to do his (evil9deeds that's why he hates god so much.
when u are in absolute control, u have no enemies bcos bcos u are in contorl of everything - the beauty of being an almighty. BUSH junior on teh other hand...... -that's another topic
Lot's of interesting thoughts... :-)
I wonder... can I say that the US (as far as one can generalise) has quite a specific way of dealing with moral issues... as that sometimes (?) laws & regulations go much further than reality is & needs?
For example, in the US the original label of a Belgian beer called 'Forbidden Fruit' (showing a classical painting with a nude Adam & Eve) had to be replaced with a 'less offensive/morally inappropriate' (?) one (without 'nude')... while on the other hand sex & violence in the media all over the place... :wacko: Isn't that another face of the same political over-correctness mentioned by a few members?
(Honestly, this probably isn't only a problem in the US, but it's imho at least more explicit than over here...)
Suppose (!) one accepts that we can't stop the current migration waves, then I see foremost a problem in how we learn to handle this period of change. And then, I'm worried that most politicians aren't talented (*) enough to 'grasp' the complexity of what's going on, not to say they should be able to communicate about what's essentially going on and find appropriate solutions to manage and guide this process and their people,... and as such they are capable to bring forward such stupid 'solutions' as the ones mentioned above... sometimes making it only worse. (Another example imho being the French minister of internal affairs' way of addressing the uproars in Paris.)
This makes me think that immigrants are rather 'collegues' sitting in the same boat as we do, on a long and painful journey in a complex situation... where's a desperate need for very capable leaders-managers...
Have to go now... lot's of work to be done... hope it makes some sense.
Have a good day!
Hasse
(*) One could say 'willing' too... following the assumption that the 'ruling class' profits from fear and therefore promotes it (see yhlc and others) and/or even just the play of different opinions & values. But imho one can't overestimate how much damage is done just by human 'imperfection' either.
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Originally Posted by nej
Quote:
Originally Posted by yhlc
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Originally Posted by joydot
...Quote:
Originally Posted by avcguy
The politicians in this country have a firm grasp of the immigrant (mainly illegal immigrants) problems in the U.S. What they don't have is a firm grasp of is how their "constituents" feel about it. It comes down to money and power with the Republicans worrying about the former and the Democrats worrying about the latter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasse
In the case of the Republicans, they support business and trade. Companies that employ illegal immigrants boost their company profits by paying their workers less. These businesses, in turn, donate more money to the Republican party to keep the enforcement of immigration laws lax. Just look at where the majority of the Republican party's donations come from.
In the case of the Democrats, they want the larger socialist base to continue their positions of power and/or to gain more of it. Most of the illegal (and even legal) immigrants come from predominately socialist countries, and tend to support increasing socialist-based programs. In the U.S., most states and even the Federal government dictate that you have to take care of people when they go to the hospital or apply for Welfare or other government assistance. There are a lot of immigrants that make use of these services (at taxpayer expense of course). If they have the right to vote (certain states allow this) or get the right to vote, they tend to vote for Democrats because the Dems want to increase social spending. Of course they want to raise taxes as well but since the immigrant used pay 50 to 60% in taxes, and now they only have to pay 20% (or less)...They've already increased their standard of living and decreased their tax load; another 5 or 10% in taxes doesn't bother them. Immigrants provide a larger voter base for the Democrats so they don't want to enforce immigration law either.
Where the politicians are out of touch is how the average natural-born or naturalized U.S. citizen feels about it. We're fed up with our tax money being used to support immigrants and we're also tired of a lot of our jobs going to immigrants (mainly the illegal ones). However, until the everyday people of this country start voting the incumbent politicians (either party, doesn't matter) out of office, nothing will change.
AMEN everwiser, AMEN!!
i guess teh ingenius plan of divide and conquer didn't stop with the british. keep the masses divided so they (politicians) can keep their jobs and continue to get fed by the fat cats in teh corporate world.
i have my own business and when it comes to employment, the ONLY reason i am going ot hire someone is because they are qualified to do teh job (ability to communicate, understanding of cultural differences, etc) and therefore reduce my expenses and increase my revenues.
i personally don't care about race, status of visa, etc. if ur qualified, u deserve teh job. i also don't go for el cheapo salaries bcos they disappear as soon as they get a better offer. good salary plus performance bonus and reasonable objectives lowers employee attrition and increase the bottom line.
i wonder how many other business owners here subscribe to this view.
the problem is those who come from a worse of place are willing to work harder and longer for pittance bcos they want to stay where tehy are.
in time to come as it is already an issue, immigration wont be a worry in regards to unemployment. think "outsourcing". it's started with manufacturing and now to call centres. it will continue thanks to globalisaiton and the quest for achieve efficiency at teh expense of human life.
ive said it before and ill say it again. take away citizne's freedom and liberty (inlcuidng employmeent) and the only result is civil war and riots. as the song goes "it's only natural...."
And now its not... what's your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by boink
With this kind of logic we may as well start at the beginning of time of man and trace who invaded whom and what territory was taken from what country and so on... and at the end of it all who's territory really belongs to the sovereign country of present day? Ever see maps of 4-5000 years ago? Borders look a bit different now.
But thanks for the history lesson...
/shred
Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by shredder
I do not know what kind newspaper you read or what news channel you listen, buy you are totally wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by everwiser
You missed news about President Bush just announce new immigration laws.
Were you been living anyway?
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or serious so I'll answer as if you're being serious...Quote:
Originally Posted by newlife
I've been following it, however the president doesn't make law. He can propose it but it will have to pass the House and Senate and I'll bet it will have more detractors than supporters when that time comes IF it actually gets to either floor for a vote. Besides, he's not calling for enforcement of the laws that are already on the books. Laws DO NOT prevent illegal immigration; they just provide repercussions for it AFTER it has already happened. Why do we need new laws when there are already volumes of them dealing with immigration?
Let them improve border security (extra people, physical barriers, etc.) and force those that wish to immigrate to go through the proper checks and steps instead of giving a pass to those who already broke immigration laws...
I'm not bad mouthing the President, either. At least he is taking the issue on. Other than a few congressmen or senators that have districts on the border, the rest of the Senate and House doesn't care. :wigged:
Meanwhile, back in "America"...Quote:
Originally Posted by shauncr
Actually it's immigrate...Quote:
Originally Posted by shauncr
immigration - entrance of a person (an alien) into a new country for the purpose of establishing permanent residence...
This has been an interesting discussion. Thank you. Here are my thoughts...not exactly "my" thoughts...I do love America. The Lord, however, is my first love. I still believe we have it the very best here in the US even though the times they are achangin'. And maybe instead of God blessing the USA...maybe it's time for the USA to bless God. Just my two cents...
If tomorrow all the things were gone
I'd worked for all my life,
And I had to start again
with just my children and my wife,
I'd thank my lucky stars
to be living here today,
'Cause the flag still stands for freedom
and they can't take that away.
I'm proud to be an American
where at least I know I'm free,
And I won't forget the men who died
who gave that right to me,
And I gladly stand up next to you
and defend her still today,
'Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land
God Bless the U.S.A.
From the lakes of Minnesota
to the hills of Tennessee,
Across the plains of Texas
from sea to shining sea.
From Detroit down to Houston
and New York to L.A.,
There's pride in every American heart
and it's time we stand and say:
I'm proud to be an American
where at least I know I'm free,
And I won't forget the men who died
who gave that right to me,
And I gladly stand up next to you
and defend her still today,
'Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land
God Bless the U.S.A.
I'm proud to be an American
where at least I know I'm free,
And I won't forget the men who died
who gave that right to me,
And I gladly stand up next to you
and defend her still today,
'Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land
God Bless the U.S.A.
Wishing everyone a blessed New Year!