Faith and Reason

I did not think that the friendly banter in "Questions to BM" would turn as contentious as they did. I feel partly responsible for this and I apologize if any nerves were exposed by my words. I also feel compelled to offer, humbly, some focus to our little family, that we may keep our eye on the ball. (Yes, this family is a little disfunctional at times, but that keeps it interesting).

Part of the problem, as I see it (and I may not see as you do), is that we have issues with semantics. We have differing definitions and interpretations of what we perceive, and, as we all know, perception is the key here. Whether you think BM a hero or villain, there are some fundamental ideas which must be defined and segregated. These main ideas are: Belief, Faith, Logic, Reason and Conviction.

Before I go any further, I would ask for the assistance of Everwiser, Largo, MingDynasty, and others in my feeble attempts to part the wheat from the chaff.

BELIEF: That which is held to be true or the truth. This is intimate, personal and individual to each

FAITH: The belief that SOMEONE or SOMETHING can bring about a desired or anticipated result, conclusion or outcome

LOGIC: Formal guiding principles of a discipline, school or science

REASON: Basis or motivation for an action, decision or conviction. Also the capacity for logical, rational and analytical thoughts

CONVICTION: A fixed or strong belief. Also intimate, personal and individual

At the risk of putting words into the mouths (or fingers) of others, what I, Everwiser, Largo, Ming, Goldeneye, 4D and others have been attempting to do is NOT TO instill a Belief or Faith with you; rather, we have been offering Logic and Reason, while maintaining our honor and integrity sprinkled with our own personal convictions.

I HAVE stated that in order to examine this particular situation, one must step outside of passion and conviction, setting aside our faith and belief, to rationally and logically examine what we DO have here. Simply screaming at the heavens when it rains gains nothing. BM is the frontman, and as such, will gather the most attention. But do you hold him solely responsible for what is currently transpiring? One cannot transfer personal issues and shortcomings upon another and then absolve themselves of participation. Whatever your motivation for joining Pips, it does not change the facts of what was, is and will be. BM is the Captain of this ship, but one cannot always be at the wheel. This does not excuse his actions or inactions. It merely is. But, from what I am reading, that isn't the REAL issue here.

EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion. NO ONE is entitled to abuse. We are devolving into a pit of TG all of a sudden. I beg all of you to practice a little restraint and grace. Disagree and debate at will, but do not attack another just because they don't see as you do. How does calling one an ***** help you or Pips?

I will end now, waiting for help from those who have spent time RATIONALLY discussing and examining the facts and assumptions presented. Hopefully, I won't need to bore all of you with more lessons in what we already know, but fail to utilize.

Arcturus

:bow: :bow:
GREAT POST

Very intelligent statement Arcturus

I agree 100%

Nicely said, as usual Arcturus.
What you have, besides all the other atributes that make up a sturdy character, is conviction. Conviction will not be swayed by common debate or augument, no matter where the true lies. It is infallable and defenceable to a point of stubborness, unswerving untill concluded in victory or defeat.
Greatness is born from conviction, the mind accepts its own truth and follows that path, undestructable in faith knowing the answer is already formulated and correct.
Conviction is the discoverer within us, the mystery of the unknown, untrodden paths, new horizons, a lonely road trod straight down the centre.
We could list the fatalities and the heroes, we all fit in somewhere, but the nice part of the human condition is the ability to shake off the dust when beaten, and start all over again.
Somehow, I think words will never dent, fingers never hold, that which burns so brightly within another persons belief, but its worth a try :)
Regards
paddy

Most kind, Paddy. I shall tip a glass in your honor this evening.

Arcturus

....and to MrLover and Newlife...........another glass........(hope I don't have to thank too many more tonight)

I am merely a dreamer of dreams, a traveler on the road, a liver of life. I look always for the good, and do what I can to fix the bad

Arcturus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArcturusI

....and to MrLover and Newlife...........another glass........(hope I don't have to thank too many more tonight)

I am merely a dreamer of dreams, a traveler on the road, a liver of life. I look always for the good, and do what I can to fix the bad

Arcturus

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If you keep this up you better not "THANK AND DRIVE". :rofl:

2 words: Wayside rest

Arcturus my friend,:cool:

Thanks for being a mediator of things…
You’re totally right…about almost turning into a TG discussion…

On your Philosophic lecture I have something to add about CONVICTION….
As this was the igniting spark for this so called discussion…

I have observed a phenomena that happens when someone have a very strong CONVICTION of something…
to give an example…

Someone have strong conviction about something and state this publicly…
This will for sure bring on an EMOTION in the listeners…
this will be POSITIVE emotion OR a negative one…
AND this EMOTION will lead to a REACTION…
either POSITIVE or Negative depending on the viewpoint of the guy reacting…


SO…this phenomena can be observed in all the postings here…
CONVICTION (stated) will trigger an EMOTION (with the listener) which leads to a REACTION (manifested by the listener)

This 3-unity is what is going on all over the place…and is the reason for every argument, fight and war that has ever been started in history…

NOW…to live ABOVE this one has to take on the attitude like Arcturus is expressing so wisely…
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“I HAVE stated that in order to examine this particular situation, one must step outside of passion and conviction, setting aside our faith and belief, to rationally and logically examine what we DO have here. Simply screaming at the heavens when it rains gains nothing.”
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So folks….
Why not USE some of these advices in our discussions here…
At least I’m willing to take them on…

So what do you say Folks…?

:cool: :smiley: Largo:smiley: :cool:

You always do Largo my friend, but talking to the blind you may find them deaf too, when want, wants ;)
You have to accept that the street is a mixture of mankind. Cross the road to avoid the bullies and locke your house against the uncouth next door, whatever, there is always a haven quite close for commonsense and good company.
Cheers mate
paddy

Is Belief and Trust Necessary For Achieving Your Goals?

They say you can achieve it if you believe it. They also say that trust is necessary. But you know what; they also say that whether you believe it or not, whether you trust it or not, certain laws of the universe will always work as they are designed to. Your belief and trust is, in regard to these laws, unnecessary.

You could say that there is a certain Current of Life that will run a certain way whether you believe it or not. When you swim against this current, it is a struggle, and then you definitely do need belief and trust to achieve your goals. When you swim with the current, when you are in the flow, you become prosperous effortlessly, and belief and trust is not necessary. At that point, only desire is required, and that desire calls forth the achievement of your goals, effortlessly.

One definition of trust, in regards to what we are talking about here, is the believing that you will be given what you ask for. Ask and you shall receive. It is a very simple statement; no need to complicate it. The universe always brings forth what you hold in your mind. Call it the Law of Attraction or Cause and Effect. You become what you think about. And what you become, what you are, is a state of being that attracts the conditions that define that state of being. This becomes your life.

Not believing that you will receive whatever you ask for is lack of trust. Therefore, lack of trust is a belief that works against you because your thoughts will tend to say to you "you will not get what you desire". And so shall it be. So lack of trust is definitely something that will bring thoughts that create realities that are against your desires.

But imagine now that you are moving into trust, becoming more trusting of yourself and the universe as a whole. Finally, you become fully trusting - and then you discover something magical. That the system works very simply. You are so you have. You think so you create. It is a simple system. It works whether you trust it or not. When you don't trust, you come from a state of being attacked and defeated and you think thoughts of lacking. And because you are so and you think so, the system creates so, exactly (and so you end up with "evidence" that "proves" that you cannot trust the universe).

But when you are in a state of knowing abundance and thinking that way, the system creates from those same thoughts. And you end up with your desires being achieved easily. It is a simple input output system. What you put in is what you get out. So when you fully trust, you start to see the magic - that trust is unnecessary. The system will always process your input and produce corresponding output exactly. Do you see this? Trust is not necessary, but if you are distrustful, then trust is necessary - not for the sake of the system, but for your sake.

Lack of trust is a crippler, trust is the crutches to help you learn to walk and heal your cripple, and when you can walk fully healed, you drop the crutches, you realize that trust is unnecessary, because you see finally that the system works always. At that point you move from the idea and conviction that the person with the request, the request itself, and the fulfiller of the request are three separate things, and you finally see and experience that they are all the same One thing. The observer, the observed and the observation are One.

Let's talk about belief now. This is even simpler. Illusions depend on belief for them to exist, for they are "made up" by the thoughts held by the believer. But Reality exists whether you believe it or not. It just Is. So you don't have to believe, as long as you don't believe against. You don't have to believe, as long as you don't believe against. You don't have to believe that you will get the car of your dreams, as long as you don't believe you won't. As long as you desire and dream of the car, it will come, but only as long as you don't believe it won't. Again, belief is unnecessary, unless you hold a contrary thought. If you hold contrary thoughts, belief is necessary (it is another crutch). Don't forget that a belief is merely a thought that you have over and over. A belief is simply a thought you have repeatedly.

So what is necessary on all occasions, whether you are talking about belief or trust? Imagination, desire, is the only necessary ingredient. That is all. Imagination, vision, desire - that is all that must be there. And if it is clear and unobstructed, even without belief or trust it will work perfectly. Whatever you imagine and desire is magnetized to you naturally, scientifically, and you don't have to do anything to make these laws work for you.

It is very true that you can have anything if you believe it. But remember, if you are having trouble finding your faith, simply look instead at the system, and you will see that faith is not even necessary, once you know that the system has been created by the Creator to work perfectly all the time, regardless. What you put in is what you get out. Your job, then, is simply not to think against yourself, and as long as you don't think against yourself, all your desires will naturally manifest. I wish you the highest possible achievements.

_______an article by David Cameron.......

Just sharing.....not trying to highjack a thread.....

but sometimes....it's as simple ......as getting out of our Own Way....

Denise:)

Well Denise, that would work fine in a perfect world, a perfect environment, and a perfect life.
Unfortunately people become twisted and knarled through no fault of their own, its just that things are never perfect for very long.
I see this most markly when I return back to the UK and visit old friends.
How they have changed!! Or is it just me?
Maybe its the aging process, growing more cynical with passing time, more critical of where everything is placed, an undeniable aversion to change.
Its hard to balance the old with the new.
As long as you keep your sense of humour you can muddle thro any crissis ;)
Take care
Regards
paddy