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  1. #1
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    Question Freedom of Speech!

    I feel that this is important for all members to read
    and understand.

    I compliled this for "everyone".

    Now...how many of you have had your posts deleted, or how many have been
    banned due to exercising your right to freedom of speech in the past few days? Weeks? Months?

    And...I am not speaking of persons who shout vulgarities or openly attack
    other members with name calling etc.Apparently, that type of discussion is tolerated.
    This is for those members and mods who were banned, posts deleted, etc for posting their truths, supportive thoughts, and analysis.

    Think about it!



    Censorship is the systematic use of group power to broadly control freedom of speech and expression, largely in regard to secretive matters.

    The act of hiding, removing, altering or destroying copies of art or writing so that general public access to it is partially or completely limited.

    something that is meant to prevent free expression


    Finally:


    * Censorship is the act of changing a message, including the act of deletion, between the sender and the receiver, without the sender's and receiver's consent and knowledge.

    * Free speech is the right to express any expression in public, and the corresponding right to experience anybody's expressions in public, without being pressured, denied access, arrested, or otherwise punished by anyone, subject to somewhat fuzzy, but fairly well-understood exceptions.

    So posting supportive words and the truth, is an exception?


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  3. #2
    Co-Admin YogiBrood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnnInMaine View Post
    Censorship is the systematic use of group power to broadly control freedom of speech and expression, largely in regard to secretive matters.

    * Censorship is the act of changing a message, including the act of deletion, between the sender and the receiver, without the sender's and receiver's consent and knowledge.

    * Free speech is the right to express any expression in public, and the corresponding right to experience anybody's expressions in public, without being pressured, denied access, arrested, or otherwise punished by anyone, subject to somewhat fuzzy, but fairly well-understood exceptions.

    So posting supportive words and the truth, is an exception?


    I just realise...the tune you are stressing on...is undermined by the magnitude missing here and you should TRULY focus on...DECEPTION. This is an even greater concern...we are witnessing ... and the Censorhip and Free Speech issues are equally vital but is in no way comparable to the degree of damage and credibility poised by Deception!!





    YB. - Cheers to the RC CARE Group...

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  4. #3
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    Who said you had freedom of speech?

    Just a point...

  5. #4
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    Yogibrood,

    I understand your point when it relates to Bryan misleading members by running a new program under another name.

    How does this however relate to members who wish to continue voicing their support for Bryan as they feel it and share another view (perception)? You may not agree with it and may have solid reasons for doing so... but I can't see how this support is an act of deception.

    Moreover, I wonder if it is consistent. Also in the past, members have been free to voice they thought Bryan was stealing money (still to be proven) and pips would never come back again,...These have been always allowed here to a given extent as well.

    Finally, Bryan's exposure has caused wounds, no discussion about that i think,... and I wonder if allowing them here and leaving room for debate isn't a better cure and option for mutual understanding in the long term than censoring the symptoms all together...

    Thank you for at least taking this into consideration,
    Hasse

  6. #5
    Senior Investor Offshore-Wealth.com's Avatar
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    Default Privacy Rights Army

    Quote Originally Posted by AnnInMaine View Post
    I feel that this is important for all members to read
    and understand.

    I compliled this for "everyone".

    Now...how many of you have had your posts deleted, or how many have been
    banned due to exercising your right to freedom of speech in the past few days? Weeks? Months?

    And...I am not speaking of persons who shout vulgarities or openly attack
    other members with name calling etc.Apparently, that type of discussion is tolerated.
    This is for those members and mods who were banned, posts deleted, etc for posting their truths, supportive thoughts, and analysis.

    Think about it!



    Censorship is the systematic use of group power to broadly control freedom of speech and expression, largely in regard to secretive matters.

    The act of hiding, removing, altering or destroying copies of art or writing so that general public access to it is partially or completely limited.

    something that is meant to prevent free expression


    Finally:


    * Censorship is the act of changing a message, including the act of deletion, between the sender and the receiver, without the sender's and receiver's consent and knowledge.

    * Free speech is the right to express any expression in public, and the corresponding right to experience anybody's expressions in public, without being pressured, denied access, arrested, or otherwise punished by anyone, subject to somewhat fuzzy, but fairly well-understood exceptions.

    So posting supportive words and the truth, is an exception?


    Hi Ann,

    I enjoyed meeting you in Vegas and it is always good to see your positive posting. I agree with you, no matter what side of issue, I would still like to see everyone's opinion, pro and con discussed freely and openly. We can all learn from it, and even though others may disagree, I still would rather see where everyone is coming from, right or wrong, I don't want to see anything deleted, unless for obvious reasons regarding rules on forum.

    Good luck to all, Mike

  7. #6
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    Thank you Mike - Hasse

  8. #7
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    As one can see from Des's post there is clearly a sense of relief that the decision to publish the facts about Bryans alias was taken but there is a price to taking the moral high ground that the admin and moderators of this forum have to live up to and if they are not already there they will have to learn to climb the hill.

    They have placed themselves upon a pedestal by making this a moral issue.

    They have been quite self-congratulatory about the decision although it has to be said that one must only wonder why it took so many weeks of agonising to make the decision once the facts were known.

    If there was real difficulty in reaching this decision one can be excused for thinking that one of the issues may have been the 35% drop in the Alexa ratings in the last 90 days and the 75% drop since March.

    That would be cynical however and unworthy so there must have been other reasons.

    That the issue has further polarised opinion is clear. The pro-pipsters who think it was a cheap shot are being banned for saying so and the anti-pipsters are having a field day and can say what they like without fear of censure.

    A forum however is all about balance. Take that away and there is no debate. No debate and the readers leave out of boredom.

    Many visitors come to a forum to read a good ding dong, a battle of words, some cut and thrust, some repartee which so long as it does not become ugly or desparaging serves to inform and encourage the quest for knowledge. The "humble" thread was a good example of this and many readers commented that they had changed their view somewhat as a result of what they read in that thread.

    Censorship is always a risky strategy. People will always find a soap box somewhere if they have something to say and Winston Churchill always said that it was better to encourage his opponents to speak their minds to his face than behind his back.

    People always suspect that the censor is seeking to hide something juicy that we cannot be trusted to know. Remember how we always wanted to see films that were too "old" for us?

    The other risk is that one has to be squeaky clean oneself to live up to ones new image as upholders of the high standards being set for the forum. Any lapses will be jumped on and any skeletons in closets will be gleefully hunted out.

    There has been much cynicism displayed about Bryans humanitarian efforts, claiming that he may have indulged these with less than pure motives.

    At the same time we are seeing displays of pride about the RC help group. Who is to say that this will not be misinterpreted? Any effort to help the underpriviledged would normally be praised and I remember when the old Pips forum was running that there was a huge following for the friends threads and great generosity shown by the members towards the needy. There were many cases where the appeals reached over $10,000 and funded operations and other projects.

    Some of the most generous members are among those who are presently leaving this forum or who left many months ago.

    This generosity of spirit is one of the great assets that a forum can have. It can generate a sense of extended family and people can develop friendships and loyalties that can last a lifetime.

    If the forum is run for the members and on behalf of the members then that is what ROLCLUB may become one day.

    If it is run for the aggrandisement of the admin and his sycophants as has happened in several other forums then it will not happen.

    This requires real sensitivity and clear policies on the part of the admin and his chosen moderators. That all viewpoints have equal right to be expressed is a fundamental of democracy and should be their focus.

    Ray spoke about the responsibilities of his position a few days ago so he knows exactly where I am coming from.

    I most sincerely hope that he can guide his forum to success not just in the Alexa ratings but in his ability to show tolerance for others viewpoints and in making this a place for giving as well as taking.

    Just a couple of bobs worth once again,


    Michael
    Last edited by michaelr; 18-08-2006 at 11:24 PM.

  9. #8
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    Everyone should have the right to express their opinions without someone with an opposing opinion blasting them and making them feel stupid for having an opinion that is different or opposite to theirs'.

    This degrading name-calling is where this process breaks down. Two other forums, HYIPD and TG for example, have engaged in trash name-calling and even hate and slander just to let another poster know that their opinion was worthless. Unfortunately TG takes this to a level beyond human decency and sorely in need of accountability.

    I do not advocate censorship in any form, but one TG is enough!!

  10. #9
    Junior Member Methedivine's Avatar
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    Default goodbye repost...

    Here, this was up yesterday for 7 minutes. Just in case you didn't read it and it was NOT in the archives.

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    everwiser is offline

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    Default Goodbye...
    I have been a mod on RC since January and often times, especially of late, it feels like it has been longer than that. In that time I’ve seen a lot of people come and go. Some just drifted away and some were “run out on a rail”…Those that were run out like vermin were the ones that were always very much in the minority of the prevailing sentiment. Isn’t in nice to know that things haven’t changed much? The difference is that now those being run out are the ones who still believe that Bryan Marsden is an honorable and trustworthy individual. This is far and away different than it was when I was promoted to a moderator on ROLClub.

    I was told early on that different opinions were welcome on ROLClub and that, as a moderator, I should do my best to leave my prejudices and personal views at the door and allow all with a view their place in ROLClub’s family. Let me be the first to tell you that it has not been an easy task to undertake or reliably execute. I like to think, more often than not, that I have been fair and honest with everyone I have dealt with. I’ve done the best I can do and have supported Marek and the other moderators at every turn. However, I can no longer follow their lead. They have chosen a path that I can neither follow nor pretend they aren’t on.

    I no longer find the tolerance that I was asked to learn in those early days. In the last few days I’ve seen posts deleted and users banned for going against the mainstream view of the forum. In the past, these measures were reserved for the most abusive and profane members regardless of their stance on an issue. This no longer seems to be the situation. The members being banned and having their posts deleted are reasonable and kind Bryan supporters. A few get close to the line but most are very sincere and considerate persons. These people make intelligent and perfectly logical posts and yet they are banned and their posts are deleted. This goes against that which I have believed ROLClub was about. I understand that times and people change but to see such a drastic reversal in how people are treated leaves me cold.

    For all of the aforementioned reasons and those posted so eloquently by Arcturus, I do hereby resign my position as moderator of ROLClub. Honor and conscience dictate that I no longer participate in the day-to-day activities of this forum and that I no longer associate with those that control it. I appreciate the friends that I have made here and the trust that was given me. I will still be accessible to my friends but it will not be here, in this forum.

    Still and Always,
    Everwiser



    P.S. Marek, Yogi, and Neno…Consider this a “Last Request”. If this is honestly about honor and truth and if you are no longer going to be sympathetic to Bryan’s endeavors, please have the decency to forever close and remove the Pips Forum and its related sub-forums.

    "...For evil left to itself does not simply perish, it thrives. Evil contained is not evil destroyed. It nourishes itself, grows within its confinement, swells and rages until it works loose, and then...then it runs free."

  11. #10
    Junior Member Methedivine's Avatar
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    Default another one...

    ArcturusI ArcturusI is online now
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    Default Swan Song
    This is not about me, it's about all of us!

    TO THE MEMBERS:

    One would think that after all this time, it would be easy to estimate the course of events or to more accurately determine that road to be taken. However, it is becoming increasingly clear that all is not as it should be in the hearts and minds of all players on this particular stage.

    The time has come, the Walrus said, to speak of many things………………

    I stated early on, when challenged, that I would reveal what I knew when the time was right, and would admit to triumph or defeat when appropriate. I also said that I would, in my own name, along with the disclosure of all my ‘incarnations’, say that ‘they’ were right (or wrong). Sadly, it is NOT the time. I am not prepared to make a determination on the program or on the drama currently unfolding before us. IT IS NOT OVER, no matter what you have read, or what you have heard. This I know to be absolutely true, and I will vehemently challenge any “proof” to the contrary. As I have said over and over, you do not know what I know (nor do I know what you claim to know).

    As one is given, or accepts, a responsibility to shepherd a flock of any type, one must step carefully in all aspects of travel. Now, I do not condone the actions of BM/bjft, nor do I condemn him for it. Likewise, I do not condone the actions of the Admin and Mod’s of RC, but I will not condemn them. I can say this: I do not share the brand of “honor” that either side is currently wielding. Honor is absolute; it cannot be bargained, compromised or a thing of convenience. It must either be, or not be. You have seen that the Admin and Mod’s have determined that honor demands that they disclose what they recently disclosed regarding bjft, and 10x5, et al. However, you need to know that this information was known to them for a period of time before it was disclosed. Why was it not disclosed earlier? Simple: It was not convenient to do so. The arguments for the membership were based on hits and traffic to RC, rather than the well-being of the membership. It was only after it was perceived as “personal” (against Admin and Mod’s) that the disclosure was made. You can plainly see the challenge to do what RC wanted, and when it didn’t come to pass….well, determine for yourselves what to make of that. RC, as was self proclaimed by Admin, is no longer P**s friendly. Unfortunately, that means what you will get will be decidedly one sided; as the Admin and Mod’s will now determine what you should or should not know, what you will or will not see. Most unfortunate.

    It should be noted here, that RC is not alone in this. You are all well aware of TG, and I cannot absolve IFF and other such forums either. The majority of the forums that you see, dear members, are compromised, and promise nothing more than their own version of what is. They seek to use BM, P**s and the membership for their own designs and their own profit. Make no mistake about that: They are earning while you are hurting. Demonstrate that what is being sold/advertised/touted as “the real deal” is actually worth the money being thrown at it. P**s is constantly riled as the greatest internet scam of all time, but what of those other “sure things” that you have recently been party to? How have you profited by what they advertise? What program out there IS working to your satisfaction? I can tell you this: The Admin of RC was invited to participate in an opportunity which IS real, which IS verifiable, which IS successful, and declined. FOUR TIMES the offer was made, even thru one of the moderators of this very forum (RC) and FOUR TIMES it was declined. WHY? It was offered to benefit the members, as the $10 “program” seemed honorable, generous and noble. Why would Admin decline such an offer to help the members? Why would Admin here, and other forums, not do what is in the best interests of the members to whom they pledge their loyalty, pity and their understanding? Simply “feeling your pain” is not enough, not now. Never forget this one thing: No matter the forum, no matter the program, no matter the cost, it is all about hits, all about traffic. Every time you log on you put money in their pocket. What is in your pocket?

    There is still hope, the dream is not gone, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to give back to you what is yours in faith. THEY will not, can not allow the dream to become reality – it is too late for that. THEY stand to lose much more than you stand to gain. How do I know this? Because I have heard nothing to the contrary. Because I have information that demonstrates that the work continues. Because they cannot prove that it is gone. They keep making the same arguments over and over. They will not shut up about it. They still seek to make a criminal. IF BM was guilty of ½ of what they claim, he’d not be free to do whatever else they credit him for. IF he was being constantly monitored, in a public place, on a public wireless, how could he continue to do ANY of what they claim if he was indeed what they say he is. The math does not add up for me. No matter how I look at this, it does not add up. I cannot confirm nor deny what is today, but I DO agree that P**s, in name and style, is gone for good. That does not mean what they want it to. It simply means that (I believe) you won’t see anything more from that company (name). I leave the rest to you.

    And so, dear members, I leave this forum for the last time. I will not be coming back, even to gaze. I am deeply troubled by the actions of the Admin and Mod’s of several forums, some of which are named above, and I do not buy in to their tired old arguments of “the real truth”. As I said, it does not compute. They say “plus” in the beginning, and “minus” in the middle, leaving a great big -0- at the end. They have no proof, only innuendo and heresy. They focus on a blemish, and disregard the whole. While I cannot say it is or it will be back, I cannot say it won’t. What I can say is that they are demonstrating that they resemble that which they proclaim him, and the rest, to be. They use honor, duty, good faith in their words. It offends me. We are constantly demanded to produce proof. It is their turn. If the authorities wanted him, they’d have him. They don’t. He isn’t hiding, in fact, too many are tracking his daily routine via internet and contacts in country. What does that tell you?

    Those who know me can get hold of me thru other means, other members. Those who don’t, find yourselves another room. This one cannot be trusted. MY honor will not allow me to be party to what most of these forums are becoming.

    [And, for the record, I never requested that “Humble” be closed. Yes, I have spoken with Yogi on a couple of occasions, but he makes those decisions, I do not. And, yes, I was originally invited to be a part of the RC “help” group, but declined. I will not say why, I just couldn’t do it. Honor and Duty would not allow it.]

    Peace and GOD speed

    Arcturus
    Reply With Quote

    "...For evil left to itself does not simply perish, it thrives. Evil contained is not evil destroyed. It nourishes itself, grows within its confinement, swells and rages until it works loose, and then...then it runs free."

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